Jesus Didn’t Come To Make Our Lives Comfortable.
Jan 07
I enjoy comfort. Actually I desire comfort. I want comfort for my children, my children’s children and their children. I hope to live my life in a way that enables them to live in comfort. I want to retire in comfort. I want my wife to be surrounded with comfort, I want to provide her comfort and receive comfort. There is nothing wrong with comfort. The problem is when we attempt to manipulate the Scriptures and ultimately Jesus to get such comfort.
Many of preachers will tell you that you should live a comfortable life. Shoot! The entire health and wealth prosperity movement is centered on such theology. Not to mention the likes of Olsteenism and the millions of man and women mimicking his ministry in pursuit of the same fame and fortune.
But here is a fundamental truth. Coming to Jesus just may make your life worse. Life may not get easier, it may get harder. Instead of receiving health you may get cancer. Instead of getting that big promotion you may be laid off. Instead of living a long healthy life you may be plagued with sickness and death. But not only that, you may also be inflicted with physical persecution from those who hate your Savior.
Truth be told the bible talks more about suffering than it ever does comfort. Especially if you look at the New Testament. Most of the churches that Paul planted suffered and suffered tremendously. I wonder how they would feel if they heard such a message about being blessed and highly favored (our blessing and highly favored is of the Lord not men). I wonder how the Christians in Iraq who were blown up would feel about a message about how God wants them to be comfortable and live a long healthy life after a car bomber blew up their church. I wonder how the single mother in Pakistan feels now that she is on death row for blasphemy. I wonder how the Christians in Egypt felt after 20 of them were blown up and 100 seriously injured. Most of all I wonder how the Philippians would have felt, once Paul said this to them:
29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, 30 engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.
You see the Church at Philippi was met with great opposition. Their abundant life was one of suffering and persecution. Some most likely lost their lives and as they turn to Paul for reassurance he tells them “Christ has bestowed upon you suffering”. You see for Christ’s name, they didn’t receive, big houses, nice jobs, healthy children, suburban incomes. No!!! They were given the gift of suffering for sake of Christ.
I want to be as honest as possible here. I have a hard time hearing anything a person has to say after they say God wants you wealthy and healthy. That person has either one, not read their bible which disqualifies them from teaching, or is outright blaspheming the name of Christ which disqualifies them. Either way they are disqualified. I don’t care how popular they are, or how nice they are, or what they fly or drive in. Such teachings are from Satan. I am sorry but the entire New Testament validates this statement.
Is comfort bad? No! In America we have it good, but lets not say that God wants all Christians comfortable. Many Christians die from cancer or some other horrible disease, some lose their children to horrible diseases, many lose their jobs and homes, others struggle with mental sicknesses or physical disabilities and as I mentioned before 100′s of Christians die for simply having faith in Jesus Christ.
Think about this, if it were granted to you to suffer for Christ, would you still be so comfortable with calling Him Lord?
Delivering false hope to people = increased revenue flow
So sad that many so called “bible teachers” are entangled with the cares of this life and miss out on the greatest wealth one can ever attain. That is to be joint heirs with Christ, if we indeed suffer with Him.
Good post.
Thanks Jon,
Long time no hear. Hope things are well and Happy New Year
All is well and Happy New Year to you too.
It seems that suffering helps us spiritually a lot more than comfort. I wonder what Christianity in America would like if we weren’t all so comfy cozy… Great post, thanks!
Dan,
I often wonder what my life would be like if it weren’t so cozy. I just pray when and if they day comes I embrace Christ with the same enthusiasm and passion and dependency.
Lionel,
I make an income that is higher than average, I live in a debt free home, I am healthy, and I have a wonderful family. I am blessed!
There have been times my income was below poverty, and I was in debt. Still I had a wonderful family and I was healthy. I believe poverty is a curse, and I don’t believe sickness and disease is a blessing.
However, since I became a christian, life is hard. No matter whether you are sick or well, living in poverty or wealth (btw most Americans are wealthy compared to the world) we still have pick up our cross daily and crucify the flesh.
For me having things are nice, but not having things is not bad either. Now I don’t like being sick or in pain, but that turns me to the Lord.
I spent many years in the word of faith arena and working for several of the top players. I learned a lot but eventually moved on. I did get set free from a poverty mentality and I still believe health is better than sickness. I don’t understand it all, but I regularly pray for my families health and that they be blessed.
What I believe started out as a truth, the health and wealth gospel (I don’t think that’s what it was in the beginning) lost it’s compass. Like most movements they start with God’s hand, but man takes it and ministers to the flesh. I spent a lot of time with Copeland, Savelle, Duplantis, Dollar and others, and they are decent men who got caught up in the hype and are now trapped by their own pride in a vicious merry-go-round. They need prayer.
Anyway, I just wanted to give you a personal perspective, that although I agree with you 100%, there is always another side to every story. It grieves me to see what goes on in that arena, but I knew a lot of folks over there and they are just deceived.
Blessings!
Jack,
This wasn’t really a response to the Health and Wealth movement; however, they do as a whole, teach that God doesn’t want us sick or doesn’t want us in poverty or doesn’t want us….. if that is true it is only true for American Christians because there are many great Christians that don’t even have drinking water, die from malaria or chicken pox or cancer every day all day. The Gospel doesn’t promise any of this, it promises that our “light and momentary inflictions preparing us for the glory to come”. That is really the focus of this post. We can and should pray for our family and their health but God doesn’t promise us any of that stuff.
Jack,
Also I know that they are decieved also. But I have little compassion as everyone of them have been contacted and rebuked both publicly and privately and refuse to repent of their wickedness and I think John and Jude and Paul would call what they do very wicked.
For me, on where I stand, I’d say that the only way comfort can ever be justified is if it would serve in one’s life as a means of bringing people to the Gospel/love walk with Christ.
If God blesses someone with riches, I Timothy 6 makes clear that they’re to be generous with what they have so that they can store up toward God and be rich in the life to come. If God called someone to have a mansion/his blessing was upon it, it’d be beautiful to see it used for something such as hosting those who are struggling—-or community outreachs such as barbecues and parties where one can do as Jesus Himself noted in Luke 14 when it comes to having a banquet and inviting the POOR, the cripple and the lame rather than only those who are well off..
For believers in other struggling countries, they indeed face suffering on a grand scale—and they are proud to do so for the sake of Christ. Yet, paradoxically, they also make clear many times that its far more difficult to live for Christ when there’s nothing but PHYSICAL comfort—to the point where they’re sending missionaries over to our own country to evangelize us since they feel that we have it worse….as we’re gradually put to sleep in a manner akin to “killing me softly”
Its also interesting how the issue of comfort makes a significant realm of difference when it comes to the subject of social justice—for as it concerns many of the ways in which addressing DISCOMFORT was the entire reason why action was taken. It was one of the basic reasons when it came to slavery in the U.S or inequality for minorities in our land….and abroad, there are MANY nations in Asia where the economy is struggling–and the evidence of this can be seen in many of the trades they allow/support there which are apart of the Black Market/Underworld dealings, be it the SEX-Slave Trade or SweatShopes and many other horrendous things that others have died from…….and there’s a need for us in the West to aid them. Just read an article the other day at work that dealt with the issue of how smuggling wildlife is one of the top industries in the world—a sympton of the black market and organized crime….and in many ways, a rape of the natural world due to the bad economies of certain Asian nations.
And with that comes the believers trapped in things such as the black market of human trafficking—or even legitimate markets that work people to death, such as the sweat .
I would think that it’d be a matter of justice for believers to seek to address these things/pray and work so that they’d have comfort on those areas. For as was the case with the rise of Liberation Theology, it wasn’t so long ago that people in the Catholic church said that those who were born into poverty or hard times were destined to stay there/be “content” while those who are rich were also called to be where they were…with one social class of people ignored because of a teaching that said God wanted others to be stuck on a certain economic level
Whenever I think of others—such as a T.D Jakes, for example, and his bent toward Prosperity Theology—it seems to be apart of a larger issue within the Black Community in General…..as there are many teachers in a myriad of denominations holding to Biblical Prosperity because of the situations that certain people groups are in—and within Black Culture, getting off of the Streets/Out of the Hood has always been a long-standing issue. And alongside that is the issue of what’s known as “Libertation Theology.” ( //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology ).
Learned of it when studying for my career in Social Work/Social Justice Advocay—and IMHO, its truly one of the most beautiful expressions of what the scriptures discuss when it comes to seeing a brother/sister in need of provision but simply wishing them well…or telling them to be cool with where they’re at (I John 2-3). Others who are founders within the movement would be people such as priest Gustavo Gutiérrez. James Cone would be another influential leader in the movement—as he contexualized it within the framework of something known as Black Liberation Theology. Brilliant man, IMHO…and highly enjoyed reading his works, seeing that in the black community what he was saying were things we’d be feeling for ages.
With Liberation Theology, much of it arose in response to what happened often throughout church history….as it concerns Ascetism and focusing seldom to none on the physical and believing one becomes more spiritual as they have less. It was highly influential in the Catholic Church for a good bit…and in many other churches since who say God’s not concerned for things such as healing of the body (as Jesus did often) or having goods….condeming others who dare to believe in praying for the sick to get healed/believing Gods heart is for wholeness and that its not wrong to live comfortably. Its what often kept those who were poor in their states, as their condition was “spiritualized” and made to look bad if one tried to rise up from that….as the prevailing view was that God “ordained” each of us to remain in the state of life that we were born into—and so if you were born poor, you were not to fight against it.
It was very similar to what’s happening in India right now with Hinduism and the Caste System, as it relates to the Dalits (i.e. “Untouchables”) who were born that way due to “bad karma”….and so to try addressing their physical plights should be avoided.
I’m reminded of Martin Luther King and where he comes from on the issue of Prosperity, as often it seemed that emphasis was placed upon the spiritual—-yet the physical was of not importance…with those who were against blacks using the dynamics of “heaven” to convice others it was wrong to care about physical institutions such as Jim Crow or Slavery. As Martin Luther King said best, , “A minister cannot preach the glories of heaven while ignoring social conditions in his own community that cause [people] an earthly hell.”-He said this in regards to other colored preachers of his day who’d talk about God and yet not do anything on physical conditions others dealt with. Some of its similar to others who have a “pie in the sky” mindset, as opposed to others who are of the mindset that heaven is to be brought to Earth
As Martin said on the issue of poverty:
Anyone studying the lives of Martin Luther King and Malcom X know that they were very sharp toward the ways others viewed the projectsdFor many, as they are already in a state where they have ENOUGH in Middle Class and to simply want more would be a big deal, that’s one thing…..but for one trying to keep herself/her kids alive, it’s a different gig…..and because of the impoverished states they’re in and the large neglect many have given to aiding them physically…..which is a big deal. Liberation Theology fought to make CLEAR Jesus was concerned for the phyical state of the poor as much as the spiritual….
Gabriel,
I agree with some parts but not others. It seems the text of scripture even validates that it was God sovereign hand that caused such poverty. Now we can argue that this was so that God can show Himself strong through the rest of us who do have an abundance of goods, but the “curse” itself is from God.
Thanks for making the post, by the way..
Personally, it’s always something I’m wrestling with since it seems that anytime one trys to deal with physical circumstances/aiding others, you’re dealing with an issue of comfort—and having to consider how responsibility comes not only knowing how to aid buisnesses/individuals who are struggling…..but also knowing how to make a difference when it comes to justice and changing the thriving businesses there which are based on injustice.
It’s sad, for example, when seeing how much the BLUE Jean industry is thriving and we deem it a sign of “Success” despite how many are worked to death/mistreated severely….and often times, they don’t know of any other way to escape the system or feel like they’ve been empowered. Due to the issue of globalization and how they in the factories due to the consumer demand, we in the West aid in their discomfort—-and yet, for the sake of a product, we’ll say that they need to stay at that level of discomfort……nevermind that we ourselves would not wish to be there.
For a good documentary on the issue, one can go online/investigate an article under the name of “YouTube -China Blue – Parte 1/6 ” ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUH36MbqcLw&feature=related).
For a good example of others seeking to bring justice to the economic community, I’m reminded of the ministry of of David Gibbons. He’s a Cool kat, IMHO, as the man has made a ministry of going out into streets/doing ministry in radical ways. He’s apart of something known as Third Culture….and it truly has reminded me of what Christ said when He said what it meant to be a Good Samaritan–bringing PHYSICAL comfort to those who are discomforted (Luke 10:25-39)…and how to live out the Gospel.
For a video to view on the issue, one can go online to Youtube and look up something under the name of “Third Culture | NewSong Church” ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUEzSZFO_ko&feature=related).
Additionally, one can go online to YouTube and investigate the video under the name of “YouTube -Xealot (full movie) ” ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx9okkEtCps&feature=related). Xealot, a non-profit organization, is a group of courageous, committed individuals whose goal is simply to transform communities globally. They invest in the long-term sustainability and development of troubled communities around the world. This video is used internally within their organization to recruit prospective volunteers and donors.
Lionel…
What specific scriptures do you have in mind when it comes to saying that God ordained for others to be in poverty? I know of many that discuss how God created both the poor and the rich—with both having a purpose…..but I also see many instances where God also said the suffering of those who were poor/destitute were never his intention–being instead the creation of man and sustained by Him, with Him desiring to pull others out of it. The theme of looking after widows and orphans comes to mind immediately, as well as his repeated denounciations against those who were not looking out for them ( Deuteronomy 10:17-19, Deuteronomy 24:17, Psalm 10:18, Psalm 68:5, Isaiah 1:17, Isaiah 58, Jeremiah 5:27-29, James 1:27, etc).
James 1-2 is a powerful chapter to consider, as it concerns how God made clear that those who were poor being destined by God to be rich in faith—and its not coincidence that Christ Himself was literally born in the “Hood” since Gallilee was essentially the Ghetto of Israel. He was chosen to be born into an area of Destitution so that He could relate to us fully…
As seen in Luke 2:3-12, Although Joseph was at this time living in Nazareth (as later mentioned in Luke 2:39), His ancestral home (own town) was Bethlehem. And although he was born in a good area, part of Christ living a Human was to live in the bad parts of town…the “ghetto” of Israel, as it were….so as to show how he could relate. He knew what it was like to grow up on the side of town that was very much despised and considered a bad/back-water place to live at.
As it concerns the dynamic of the “Ghetto” being akin to Galliee, there’s actually an interesting study I think would be beneficial on the reality of how Jesus challenged the economic structures of the times Himself…and that was but one more reason as to why the Pharisees and Saducess were very much threatened by Him.
For they were considered the religious leaders of his day and had more in common with the everyday people, though the Saducees were the Rich Elites who controlled the Money Flow. Jesus went against both groups and placed all of their interests in trouble with his teachings, stealing popularity from the Pharisees and challenging the social ladder of the Sadducees when it came to his teachings on wealth/finance and many things that were very much akin to the Essene way of life—one that was HIGHLY communal and able to ensure that all are taken care of….as opposed to certain others being left destitute and open for being taken advantage of like it is in the hood with LOAN sharks.
For more info, one can go online and look up an article by the name of “”Nazareth’s rebellious son: deviance and downward mobility in the Galilean Jesus movement” ( http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-185031913.html ). It dealt with how the teachings of Christ and what he did literally resulted in a new kind of economy being built—as groups quickly emerged and developed their own patron-client economy. By meeting the basic needs of its members, this household-based domestic economy also created a safety-net for its disenfranchised and honored poor. The Jesus movement represented one of the many sub-systems within first-century Galilee, and—with some modification—it resembled later urban Christian households, especially those characteristic of Paul and Luke—Acts.
As it concerns God showing himself strong through the rest of us, I’d say that’d probably be the best way of seeing it. One cannot go through Deuteronomy ( Deuteronomy 15:11
, Deuteronomy 15:10-12, Leviticus 19:10, Leviticus 23:22, Deuteronomy 24:21, etc ) and the way that GOD set up up a system of social networking and miss how God made clear He wanted his people to look out for the poor—-and even in the NT, this is a big theme when it comes to how God has called us to be his hands and feet
God gave the entire curse. God ordained Israel to be slaves, Paul says “God has sat the boundaries, where you should live….”.
I don’t know how else to deal with these text my friend. God sat the person in Ethiopia, Sudan, parts of South America, God caused the climate conditions and sets the governing authorities. Would you agree?
I see in Acts 17:26 where Paul stated, “From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.” ( Acts 17:25-27)…..indicating God’s sovereignty over the histories of the nations. No one can deny that God ordained for certain groups to be born where they were at in the time they were at—be it with the Jews, the American Indians, the Egyptians, the Mongols or many other groups..each with their own diversities.
However, I don’t see where it ever says that GOD dictated every single one of their actions when it came to the places they were at. It doesn’t seem apparent that GOD caused all groups to migrate from one area to another when they were looking for food/land—or that when it came to their seeking to do evil, that God was leading them to do war/conquest and murder….or blood sacrifices/cannibalism (as was the case with the Aztecs in the area God placed them).
With that comes the question of whether or not God dictates/controls EVERY action of humanity in all that they do when it comes to where He places them. How much agency does man have?
Additionally….where does it say that all instances of poverty are a matter of a curse that GOD ordained, Bro? Obvious is the fact that there’s the example of the Israelites who God made clear would go into slavery when he showed Abraham the preview (Genesis 15:12-16)—though with that, it never says God sent them into slavery…but merely that they’d be enslaved, with him punishing the nation that did so—just as it was the case when he destoryed Egypt after hearing his people’s cry (Exodus 2:23-25 , Exodus 6:4-6, Exodus 22:20-22, Leviticus 19:32-34, Leviticus 26:12-14, Deuteronomy 5:14-16, Deuteronomy 15:10-16, etc ). Sovereignly, God used it for His Supreme Glory.
For a better example of where it seems God ordained suffering, I’d think one would go with Joseph in Genesis 50:19-21, sold into slavery and yet by God’s Design risen to the second most powerful man in Egypt so that he could save thousands in a time of famine.
As it concerns Governing authorites, there’s also indication within the Tanak that God has many times set others into positions of authority. With Daniel and the King of Babylon in Daniel 4, I think this is a clear example since even he noted that the King was given power by God—just as it was with Jesus who told Pilate that the power he had came from the Lord ( John 19:9-11 )—and the word makes clear that the king of Babylon was Gods Servant ( Jeremiah 25:8-12; Jeremiah 27:21-22; Jeremiah 29:10-14 ). He was given power to punish Judah–as well as to punish the enemies of Israel (Assyria) that God rose up to punish them when they got out of line ( Habakkuk 1:11-13 , II Kings 17:1-18 )… Other examples would be seen in Isaiah, with Cyrus being God’s servant (Isaiah 44:28-45:9 , Ezra 1:1-3, etc).
However, I also see examples where God made clear certain leaders he did not desire to come to power nor did he choose them to rule at all—-and this is more so in view with what the book of Kings discusses when it comes to their idolatry/actions with it. Judges 9 is one example where the prostitute son of Gideon went after power, killing all of his brothers except one…and that one that survived placed a curse upon him that came to pass. God didn’t want the people to have a human king before Him—and neither did Gideon who refused the offer when the people desired him to rule….but his son went after it to God’s displeasure—and God took him out.
I see the text makes clear that God can ordain suffering—-but to say that all cases of suffering are ordained by God would seem to be reading more into the scriptures than they speak of….and this is said in light of how scriptures seem to speak both of suffering ordained by God and suffering caused by man, which God uses nontheless (Proverbs 16:4) but is greatly grieved by since it was not what He desired. Categories are important, I think..
Gabe,
I have moved back to the position that all events are ordained by God so we would probably have a fundamental disagreement that could never be reconciled.
Lionel..
Never was I oblivious to the fact that you changed your position, as you made a post about it for the New Year and I commented there on it. Ultimately, IMHO, it wouldn’t matter as to whether or not there was agreement since the issue of discussion is on what scripture says…what has been the historical view/interpretation of it in the church and showing how we may come to our respective views. Agreement isn’t necessarily the goal, unless we have to be like-minded in order to have discussion.
To be clear, again, if you disagree, cool—you disagree….as others may..and the world keeps going, as we’re all on our own journey in trying to discover what God desires.
Gabriel,
I would have just as many verses proving my point. Jesus says not a sparrow falls from the sky apart from your Father. Either Jesus is saying God has direct involvement in everything or this is just a useless section of scripture. Also just because God doesn’t want something to happen doesn’t mean He doesn’t cause it to happen. He crucified Jesus yet held men responsible. How that works, this is where I have bowed my knee.
Lionel,
I agree (as said before) that there are many verses supporting the concept of God ordaining things. In line with the concept of the bird and the sparrow, as seen in Luke 12, that goes in line with how a GUIDING Hand is always present by the very definition of who God is—-for all things in existence will always need the GRACE/POWER of God to do anything of worth—just as its by His Grace that all men have rain….for in his Providential Grace, He shows grace/care for all his creatures…allowing others to survive by sending rain on the JUST and the Unjust (Matthew 5:45)….
This is more sin line with the theological concept known as Panentheism. Panentheism is the idea that the entire universe is part of God, But God is greater that the universe. God is omnipresent and transcendent – that is, God contains the entire cosmos but the entire cosmos does not and cannot contain God. He is omnipresent because his uncreated energies permeate all Creation, generating and sustaining it. And He is transcendent because his uncreated essence is inaccessible to us – it is wholly beyond Creation.
Kinda like my cells and molecules and blood and other things in my body are part of myself, but I am much greater than those…and I cannot be seen in them….yet I am omnipresent through them, as I created them at my conception and sustain them throughout my life. God transcends creation as I transcend my body. Intelligence is everywhere.
Much of it is very much seen best in the concept of the INCARNATION–where the Lord stepped into HISTORY itself even though He was outside of TIME…..and experienced life as all of us do, grieving and growing ( Luke 2:39-40, Luke 2:51-52, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 4:14-16, Hebrews 5:7-10, etc )—and yet, by God’s Grand Design that we’ll never know, he desired for Christ to die and used men to do so ….as Christ was not a victim of circumstances…..and his death wasn’t the result of circumstances, caprice, chance, fortune or luck. It was all a matter of the Lord being in control.(Acts 4:23-27, Acts 2:22-24, John 11:49-51, etc)/
Its the entire dynamic of Free Will and Sovereignty—or Permissive Will vs Secret Will…and Panentheism gives a good way of reconciling things.
Panentheism ALSO deals with how all there is not only emanates from God..but is experienced by Him as well. Its the idea that one’s not to worship an animal or a tree since it’s not the creator–but on the same token, as Chasidism ascribes to, the animal being abused is felt deeply by the Lord. He hurts with it as much as it does since that creation is directly connected to Him (As its being sustained by Him) and consequently He can feel it—just as he does with all suffering and pain in the world whenever injustice occurs.
Its why Christ said that even the sparrows do not fall outside of God’s care—as well as why He made clear that even the Ravens look to God for food ( Psalm 104:18-22, Psalm 147:8-10, Matthew 6:25-27, Luke 12:23-25 etc )
This is why many Panentheist have noted that Paul made a point in Romans to discuss how its not just humankind that’s redeemed…but all of creation as well, described as “groaning” and “suffering” rather than being indifferent to it all. The Eastern Fathers and some medievals have written profoundly on the cosmic dimensions of the Incarnation and Redemption (as did St. Paul).
Classical theism views sin and the Fall as distinct from the basic structure of the world and the culmination of the kingdom of God as a gracious undertaking that is not a mere outcome of a natural process. Panentheism, however, typically views creation and the Fall as part of the cosmic process as are redemption and consummation.
Christian panentheists view the earthly existence of Jesus Christ as either the central cause of the outcome of the process or a primary symbol or example of the process. Each approach is at odds with classical theism. With Biblical Panentheism I tend to lean more so toward what’s known as weak panentheism or soteriological panentheism. That is more similar to the position found in Eastern Orthodox Christianity (As well as Eastern Christianity in general). For in that view, God is manifest in redeemed nature and panentheistic metaphors are used in an eschatological sense, a future expectation when all redeemed nature is reconciled with God (1 Cor 15:28). Ultimate salvation is viewed in a Johannine fashion, as participating in the Divine community of the Trinity (John 14:20) and abiding in Gods love as God himself is love in that He is the eternal community between Father, Son and Holy Spirit (1 John 4:16). If aware of the Eastern Orthodox concept known as Theosis, that may aid in helping things make more sense..
When understanding the theological framework of Panentheism as God being the system of systems, all creation and processes being within God, things can come together. You & all of creation exist within God. As for evil, that probably falls in under panentheism’s understanding & of the whole creation and the sustaining of it as an act of Kenosis (self-emptying for those unfamiliar with the term, famous from Philippians 2:7 where Christ is described taking the form of a servant by emptying himself) for God. For all of creation/ its sustaining is understood as a continuous act of suffering love, where God takes the suffering of this world upon Himself. Noticeably, this goes counter to the more traditional understanding of the impassibility of God the Father and inability to hurt Him. The panentheistic model seems to be the more biblical of all options since God certainly is portrayed as one who is affected by the state of his creation in the scripture….and in my view, it increases the GLORY of God’s redeemption since in Christ (Colossians 1-2), that redeemption has begun to occur over all creation and the suffering the Lord has had to endure will eventually come to a Glorious end.
Within the world of Messianic Judaism, one of the best places to research for an understanding of Panentheism is with others who have leanings more so toward Chasidism rather than toward other sides that hold to a more classical theism mindset. Within the system of Jewish thought known as Hasidim, Hasidic Jews actually believe God is in everything. Panentheism, popular in certain Chasidic circles, seems more than relevant if/when understanding God to be both within all existence and transcendent beyond all being. When all life as we know it is over, God will remain, the ultimate One, alone. Yet in the here and now “every creature and every form of life is a garbing of the divine presence”. This has immediate moral implications….for the way in which we treat them and relate to them is the ultimate testing ground of where we stand. This is significant in light of many many of the endeavors others get involved in to aid our planent (i.e. global warming, recycling, sustainable development, etc ) cannot be sustained without having a religious basis for such..
There is not one physical location in this universe where we can hide from the presence of God. As King David stated, “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell [the grave], behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me” (Psalm 139:7–10).
Through His Spirit, God’s reach extends to every nook and cranny of the universe, and there is—as David wrote—no place to flee from His presence. Others may say “But if God is everywhere, does that mean that there’s nothing seperate from who He Is”. On that, one can attempt illustrating it through the concept of water (although physical analogies can never fully define God). If God is like water…the Ocean in which we are but a drop…then when He made all things to swim in Him, its logical to understand that all things distinct in the Ocean are not the OCEAN itself. They’re simply surrounded by it. …as the water surrounds/affects the rocks, the plants, the fish and everything else inside
However, all of that’s said to indicate that just because God sustains/upholds all of existence DOES NOT mean that every action within existence is ordained by God…
We’re not naturalists, Bro, who deny the miraculous in the name of science…nor do we deny creation, as Naturalists do, holding that the universe is ultimately self-explanatory. As many Christians who were scientists have noted, life is well designed…and yet we know that there is an eternal/self-existent and personal God who created and upholds the universe while also being distinct from it (Genesis 1:1, John 1:1, Col 1:16, etc).
But we also understand that God does not dictate all of the actions that men and nature itself promotes—-just as it was with Christ who was killed by Sinful men, despite the fact that God held them responsible for their actions while also making clear that He desired for Christ to die/weaved it in.
Panentheism does not begin soteriologically with God’s special presence to some but with the universal presence to all, moving from thence toward the theories of special presence. It seeks to give the right perspective & focus in the face of evil. For instead of pulling away from those things that do not now manifest the nature of God fully, panentheism suggests the picture of transforming and healing them, as a healthy body might heal itself from an injury. In this line of thought, the rapist still is being sustained by the Lord’s power even though God may not approve of His actions/decide to dwell with him…with God’s heart being to see the rapists REDEEMED and trusting in Him since even the Rapists was made in the image of God/given as aspect of the Divine….and the message of repentence/forgiveness and grace is where that process of healing can begin for the rapist, the murderer or any other aspect where decline has begun.
Even though in some ways He chooses to be disconnected from it, he is still connected to it intimately. The same goes for what was noted earlier when it comes to decline in the natural world, especially in cases where the natural world has been raped. Panentheism would suggest that God desires for healing to occur rather than the world to be abandoned altogether/demolished….and thus, He keeps it all going so that the chance for healing/redeemption may occur.
This goes in line with the analogy you sought to bring up earlier when it came to Panentheism being like the molecules/atoms and cells within your own bodily system. If an infection occurs within the body, the Immune System does not seperate itself from it. Rather, it gets intimately involved in it/address it—with the rest of your bodily functions still having to continue. Your body may end up having cells that become infected, though it may also go into the route of comfortably excising them like a virus or cancer…while also trying to keep the body in tact.
The church’s calling is to embody the love of God in and for the world, as we are a part of the ways in which God works to heal the body (i.e. the World in its corruption). Even when there’s decline in the world that God contains, God feels it all…grieves over it….but still has all things in control.
I’m reminded of others what the Word says on times where others were infected and God had to deal with it:
—————–
1 Samuel 16:14
[ David in Saul's Service ] Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
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Ezekiel 10:18
Then the glory of the LORD departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim.
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Psalm 5:4
You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.
5
———————————-
Psalm 26:8
I love the house where you live, O LORD, the place where your glory dwells.
———————————
In the situations with Saul and the Children, we see how a God that transcends all of reality has indeed chosen to limit His activity/presence in MANY places. The OT is full of numerous examples where the Lord departed from His people/left them to themselves. Again, we must a note that although God is omnipresent through His Spirit, we can become separated from Him. In fact, we are warned, “your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear” (Isaiah 59:2). Jesus Christ experienced this horrible separation during His crucifixion, when on our behalf He took upon Himself the full penalty of our sins (cf. Mark 15:34; Isaiah 53:4–5).
Part of me is reminded of the issue of what took place within the very Garden of Eden in Genesis 3…..for once man chose to disobey God by eating the Fruit of the Tree of Knowing Good/Evil, things were SET in motion.
Yet God did not lose complete control—as His sovereignty would not allow it….nor was it the case that He ever gave man 100% control over all aspects in the physical realm. Adam was made to rule/have stewardship….and it was never equal sovereignty, for if it were, it wouldn’t have been the case God could have exerted the authority to repulse Adam from the garden. God was over Adam/His employer—-just as the Devil in His throne room/in God’s presence are subservient to Him, and submit to His authority ( Job 2, Revelation 12:7 , 1 Kings 22:19, etc)
Again, God had not abandoned Adam fully—nor could he EVER do so without harming his own Creation..just as it is for all men (saved/unsaved today). For as mentioned before on God’s Nature (AND on church concepts like Panentheism), its established in scripture that Christ in the scriptures is portrayed as the INSTRUMENT of creation, “sustaining all things by His powerful word”, (Colosians 1:16-7, John 1:3, Hebrews 1:3)—and whom by immanence is fully present in even the smallest atom….with all things connected to Him for their own survival. And since it requires God’s very prescence/connection and energies for any of mankind to even live on, God could not simply LEAVE ADAM completely lest Adam simply dropped dead on the spot.
Thus, after cursing man kind (Genesis 3), God sought him out to redeem him..providing the means for Adam to restore himself on some level to the rightstanding he had before the fall so there could be some kind of fellowship with the Lord (via sacrifices/looking in faith unto the Promised Messiah who’d permantely destroy sin rather than “cover” it alone). Though it was not the best, it’d do for the time…until things could be brought back to how the Lord desired in His original intentions for mankind/the Spirit of God dwelling intimately with men.
Nevertheless, it still was sad for Adam since he was seperated nonetheless from the Lord on some level was the case for Adam…for as Genesis 1-3 make clear, Adam fell into disfavor and suffered a curse of death/the effects of a sinful/empty life outside of the Lord (Romans 3, Romans 5-8, I Corinthians 15, etc)—as that’s the reality of what spiritual death is……for its being forsaken/experiencing SEPERATION from the Full Power of the Holy Spirit.
Just as the body may heal itself when it comes to wounds being made, it seems that the infection of sin was contained to a degree when it came to the actions done by the Lord. God realized the level of control he had given his creation/the significance of ensuring that the scope of man’s error was limited by kicking them Out of the Garden…for Adam would have lived forever if he ate of the tree of life, as it seems this tree will sustain life in the kingdom of God and heal all who eat of it ( Genesis 3:22-23 )
What happened with Adam could be said to be in the same sense as what happened to Christ where God didn’t want something to happen and yet in a sense—as it suited His purposes—he allowed it to happen. For one must wonder that even in Paradise, man was with perfect communion with the Lord and yet to a degree, He may’ve been unable to see the Lord as He was fully when it comes to love since the ultimate expression of love is seen in being able to give up one’s life for another, John 15:12-14, 1 John 3:15-17, etc).
One cannot deny that Adam’s choice to sin was within the sovereign plan of God—where it was allowed and the Lord was more than prepared for it, even though the effects of it grieved Him significantly, as seen in Gen 6:6 where the Lord was greatly saddened at the turn-out of man.
However, it doesn’t seem complete to say
that Adam sinned because God ordained him to sin…as in essence, that’s akin to saying that if a man rapes a child/sins just like Adam, man is not the FIRST cause of his actions or choices. IMHO, God is the First cause of ALL, and God created man (in His own image a moral agent), consequently meaning that man is the first cause of his own actions and choices.
Yep Gabe,
We disagree fundamentally. But I do appreciate the interaction as usual.
Meant to say “I” rather than “You” when it came to saying “This goes in line with the analogy you sought to bring up earlier when it came to Panentheism being like the molecules/atoms and cells within your own bodily system”–as I made the analogy.
Additionally, for more info on where I’m coming from with Panentheism:
–”Panentheism: the Other God of the Philosophers (John W. Cooper)” ( http://www.ivpbooks.com/489 )
—”Panentheism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)” ( http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panentheism/ )
–”Biblical Panentheism: The ‘Everywhere-ness’ of God—God in all things” ( http://www.frimmin.com/faith/godinall.php )
–”"Panentheism & Interspirituality – What’s Jesus Got to do With It? <<<zoecarnate" ( http://zoecarnate.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/panentheism-interspirituality-whats-jesus-got-to-do-with-it/ )
Just wanted to be clear that on what Jesus said in, I in no way think the scripture is useless.
For myself, as an panentheist, the transcendent Presence of God lies at the heart of the ordinary activities of our lives—work and play and family—and all other things in creation. The things of this world are not fragmentary sources of the divine, but channels for the divine fountainhead which flows ‘from above’ and is not of this world. (John 8:23)
With the theme of God fueling/sustaining creation, PERHAPS it'd be best to say that those supporting things such as Theistic Evolution often come down on that side when it comes to God taking pleasure in seeing where his creation goes…while also guiding it simultaneously.
In example, with the evolutution, there are many believers who hold to the stance that even things like Natural Selection/"Survival of the Fittest" is in a way similar to the aforementioned thought of God allowing things to occur so that a result may follow that He desires…..as in example, allowing a species to have to fight to adapt–and once being victorious, rewarding it with survival. On a smaller scale level is the …for Psalm 104:30 says, "You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; and You renew the face of the earth". And within Progressive Creationism, God starts and then periodically "restarts" the process, which otherwise can be explained as gradual development out of the possibilities provided by new forms.
Essentially, even if something was started but it becamed "marred" somehow….Much like the man born BLIND that Jesus healed in John 9:1-15 and many other instances of Healing….God could intervene/begin AFRESH with the creation to bring it back to how it was meant to be
With God ordaining events, John 9:1-5 is one of the best examples. The disciples' question of "Was it because of this man's sins or his parents that he's like this?" reflects the assumption, customary in ancient Judaism, that suffering could be traced to sin. The underlying concern—well intentioned, but misguided—was not to charge God with perpetrating evil on innocent people (Exodus 20:5, Numbers 14:18, Deuteronomy 5:9, etc). And yet the NT makes clear that suffering is not always a direct result of a person's sin (e.g. Luke 13:2-3, II Corinthians 12:7, Galatians 4:13, etc…including Jesus' crrucifixion, as discussed in John 12:28, John 12:37-41, John 17:1-5). When Jesus stated "that the works of God might be displayed in Him", it seems to have indicated that God in His mysterious and wise providence sometimes allows His children to go through hardship and suffering so that they can experience God's power and mercy in delivering them.
The same goes back to what occurred with Jesus when it came to the ordaining of his death—all of the murderers involved sustained by God—and yet acting freely.
Much of it reminds of of what often happens scripturally when others may prophesy and yet not really do so with the intent of glorifying God prior..such as with Caiphas, for example, when he prophesied of the death of Christ:
In John 11:45-52, where Pilate prophesies the death of Christ and others debate whether to kill Jesus, the text makes clear he did not speak on his own.
The phrase "die for the people" invokes the memory of the Maccabean martyrs (II Macc, 7:37-38). With a typical Johannine double meaning, Caiaphas's pronouncement anticipates Jesus's substitutionary atonement. IMHO, the man's actions do not mean that Caiaphas — like one who was mad, or out of his senses — uttered what he did not understand. For he spoke what was his own opinion. Rather, a higher impulse guided his tongue, because God intended that he should make known, by his mouth, something higher than what occurred to his mind. What Caiaphas said at that time was done in 2 senses…..one which dealt with the wicked design of putting Christ to death, which he had conceived in his mind…and the other concerning what God had in mind when it came to how the Lord wanted Christ to die ( Acts 2:22-24 ), thus making Caiphas's words a prediction. Its similar to what occurred when God intended to bless his people by the mouth of Balaam, on whom he had bestowed the spirit of prophecy…even though Balaam's intentions were to curse (Numbers 22-25)
God has a way of knowing what could happen with the errors and still find some kind of way to work it to His advantage as He always does with all things (Proverbs 16:4).
Just some thoughts…
Disagreement is cool, Lionel….though in all honestly, anyone can say something’s fundamental in disagreement without showing biblically how its the case. If one’s making a post simply sharing their mind, that’s cool. However, it does leave much begging when saying one disagrees but seems to leave out much of scripture.
But again, its all good and the interaction’s appreciated.
I have the verses I provided a few of them, you combated them with something else. I believe the bible tells the story of a God who controls everything, ultimately you disagree or interpret the text I provided differently or you interpret them through a different framework. To say I didn’t show it biblically is misleading. I can pull out a 100 verses from God making Moses’ speech impaired or from God controlling things such as earthquakes and natrual disasters to God placing everyone at the place they were going to live and the conditions they were going to live in. The problem is you will come with other verses that either combat this or disagree with this and thus the cycle will never end. As I said I appreciate your view point but to say not showing it biblically is sort of misleading.
The discussion itself is a blessing in the sense that it does open up dialouge on the issue of addressing whether its biblical to say God causes the very sins that He hates (i.e saying God detests slander & yet causes others to slander, saying God hates sexual immorality but then saying he caused it if it’d bless him) and how far that’d go.
Within the subject of this thread, I think its interesting since it could also be said in one sense—if God ordains all events in human history–that he is also the one responsible for others seeking to ensure all are comforted….and that those who do teach all Christians should be comforted are really living out what God caused, to a degree. And as many have been benefited by others teaching comfort/physical blessing—as is the case in many churches abroad who are suffering economically and yet thanking God for those in the West who believe in Prosperity/using their wealth to aid them—-who could truly say God wasn’t involved in that? For those who have schools built, wells dug with clean water made accessible and new jobs to counter those that are deadly,…or children being sponsored/adopted that may have been involved in the Lord’s Revolution Army and the “Child Soldier” war occuring in places like Uganda, its something to think on.
Its all a matter of Fate/Destiny..and that’s pretty cool to think on, IMHO.
Much in line with the Yin Yang dynamic.
I’m reminded of India, as there was a book that was given to me by one of my friends in the Charismatic Movement—specifically, the part associated with movements such as the Brownsville Revival and “Fire School of Ministry” in Pensacola, Florida. For the name of the book, its called “Revolution in World Missions”
Its the story of missionary statesman Dr. K.P. Yohannan , born in India and one of the leading men today in Missions Work…..and it was cool to witness how he experienced the world ..and what a difference it made to see the world through his eyes—from the villages of India to the shores of Europe and North America. For more info, one can go to his ministry known as “Gospel for Asia” ( http://www.gfa.org/about/ ). It has been very insightful on the issue of missions and what often occurs in the East—especially as it relates to Indigenious Missionaries being the best kind to minister to others in their area and the realities in India many are often unaware of. …as the author of the book often discussed the issue of how those who see Biblical rosperity in the West working for them often neglect their responsibility to help in aiding those struggling in the East when God gives financial blessing..
Something one of my brothers in Christ said—as his church supports Biblical Prosperity–was that his church helped to build an orphanage in Uganda for children “whose parents have abandoned them or have died from Aids or other diseases.” This was a group who was having supplies and food shipped in because they are in a remote region. Because of the cost of trucking in supplies, the cost to them has tripled. His church helped them buy a 10 acre plot of land upon which they could begin farming. They had eyed a much larger plot, 100 acres. The food they grew in the 10 acres was enough to meet their need and so they did not have to buy from the supply companies (for an additional savings). Because of their planting and investment they were able to raise the funds for the purchase of the 100 acre lot themselves.
With the food grown on this small farm they will be able to sell it back to the supply company and actually see a profit from it. It is but a very, very small corner of Uganda, but there is a glimmer of the prosperity that, yes, shows it can be preached. And as others have been excited to see how many of the economies there have been built up so that those Christians/Non-Christians alike suffering in poverty can better themselves like we do in the West, its interesting to consider the dynamic of poverty.
I have the verses I provided a few of them, you combated them with something else. I believe the bible tells the story of a God who controls everything, ultimately you disagree or interpret the text I provided differently or you interpret them through a different framework. To say I didn’t show it biblically is misleading. I can pull out a 100 verses from God making Moses’ speech impaired or from God controlling things such as earthquakes and natrual disasters to God placing everyone at the place they were going to live and the conditions they were going to live in. The problem is you will come with other verses that either combat this or disagree with this and thus the cycle will never end. As I said I appreciate your view point but to say not showing it biblically is sort of misleading.
L, I saw where you gave the few verses you provided—and I addressed your verses specifically. If you missed that, one can always go back, as I don’t like to skip over scriptures given without dealing with the context and seeing if the theme is consistent with the rest of the text—-no more than posting a few scriptures on the gifts of the spirit/saying we should all be raising the dead and yet seeing if that’s what taught in the entirety of the Word. The other thing remotely related to “something else” were the many other scriptures that indicate the same theme and actually give the other side of things. I believe . Of course, if you disagree, so be it.
No one denies that you believe in the story of a God who controls everything—nor does anyone deny you the right to believe such. However, when making an absolute claim that the scripture support that and implying those disagreeing do not really have a case, its basic to discussion to show a complete case. This has happened repeatedly on this blog alone whenever others have made views you or others disagreed with and scriptures both sides gave were addressed…..and in the event that other scripture seemed avoided, they were brought up—with them being discussed honestly rather than saying “I disagree.” There’s no room saying that only one person brings up verses combatting or disagreeing since you’ve ALREADY done the same, justified it and set precedent—and if you want evidence, just ask and a number of posts you have made where others noted it can be brought up.
If you have verses, one can always bring them out. Its not a problem to discuss them, Bruh. The speech with Moses is one of the common ones—which was something also going in line with what was noted in John 9 when it comes to others having disabilities….though even that’s debated since many have noted that God creating the mute/deaf seeing and the blind in Exodus 4 does not equate to him saying he MADE them that way. The Church Fathers are one of the best sources for discussion on what when it comes to how the early church viewed the concept of events being ordained.
As I said, I appreciate the discussion—but saying the Word supports a view without giving scriptural reference…or showing the entirety of the saying gained from scripture and whether or not it harmonizes with the rest of the Bible isn’t dealing fully with the Bible.
On the subject of natural disasters, that was never denied by what I said—as Panentheism DEALS with just that…God being involved/guiding it. Scriptures on the issue which all are aware of:
God is Sovereign over the weather (Exodus 9:29; Psalm 135:6-7; Jeremiah 10:13).
God controls the skies and the rain (Psalm 77:16-19).
God controls the wind (Mark 4:35-41; Jeremiah 51:16).
God upholds and sustains the universe (Hebrews 1:3).
God has power over the clouds (Job 37:11-12, 16).
God has power over lightning and Satan (Psalm 18:14).
God has power over all nature (Job 26).
All of that, however, does not deal with the other scriptures given on the subject of God saying clearly that He did not ORDAIN certain events in the history of the world. Obviously, we can go to Bible Gateway and find a slew of scriptures dealing with the framework of how God Himself ordained many things…just as there are many scriptures on how God himself said he didn’t ordain many events–be it child sacrifice, witchcraft or a host of other issues. God made clear to Jeremiah that child sacrifices/idolatry were things that did not even enter his mind ( Jeremiah 7:30-32, Jeremiah 19:4-6 , Jeremiah 32:34-36, etc). Genesis 6:1-19 clearly shows a God who said that He was grieved that He made man since the evil on the earth Some of them have already been brought up—-and on the issue, I’m wondering how does one explain those texts if saying God ordains ALL events in History? It is simply an invitation for one to share their viewpoint fully.
Again, I see too much scripture to support one side/viewpoint exhaustively—and I was under the impression that discussion was going to incur showing why it must be the case that scripture support one side. If not, cool. Its all good
Ultimately Gabriel when you have two obviously contradictive scriptures one must submit to the other. I believe that the bible in its entirety shows God’s direct providence in all things. And we have discussed it when does it become fruitless?
Lionel,
It has been very edifying to observe the many people I have been privileged to serve. Thinking about them,in terms of your article, I’m reminded of Paul’s words in Ephesians 1:11 “In him we have obtained an inheritance,having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will”.
I’ve known wealthy people, who lived in the most amazing homes, and drove cars I could only look at. At the same time, as their elder, I was privileged to know the enormous sums of money they anonymously contributed to various ministries and needy individuals.
Again, I’ve known very poor people, who gave of their money and possessions in the most generous of ways.
Sadly, I also knew wealthy,and poor who were the very opposite.
Whether endowed with worldly wealth or not, all followers of Christ need to keep in mind that which Psalm 24:1 declares, “The earth is the Lord’s and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.”
Most Western Christians don’t seem to understand these words. Our society is at odds with God on the matter, because it judges our worth by what we own; modern homes, cars,money for now, and the future. We will wear ourselves out to obtain these things, because we think they belong to “ME”.
The psalmist tells us, whether rich or poor, that everything we have belongs to God. Everything! Our material wealth as well as our very lives are His to do with as He wills. We are stewards of God’s property!
We live, and work for Him, because we are His, bought at the most incredible cost.
You’re absolutely right; Jesus Didn’t Come To Make Our Lives Comfortable, but to give us lives by which we glorify the Father!
Lionel,
You stated to Gabriel:
“Ultimately Gabriel when you have two obviously contradictive scriptures one must submit to the other.”
My response:
Do you not believe that agreement can be found in all scriptures when properly studied and understood?
For we know that God does not contradict Himself.
Lionel,
There’s understanding that when you have two obviously contradictive scriptures one must submit to the other….however, what’s often left out is that the train of logic used for such is something which was not always the case in the early church—as there was the concept of scriptures not having to cancel each other out. Rather, they simply existed in tension with each other..not having to make perfect. Some of these “contradictions” can be worked out by careful study of the original intent of that passage and how the culture it was written in interpreted it–as it concerns church history/orgins. Some may be resolved by “if – then” statements where different truths come into play at different times. And I think sometimes these truths just stand together even though they are opposed to each other……
Of course, there’s also the concept of “1st Mention”–where a concept that was stated is determined by where it first appeared/seeing how it either maintained itself or evolved
I’ve said earler that I also believe that the bible in its entirety shows God’s direct providence in all things…..but I also wrestle through how that plays out. It was with this in mind that scripture was given to get your specific take. You already know I have no problem with disagreements as I have many friends who are Reformed and of the mindset you’ve chosen to go on in this new year—-though I know that each of them differs in their methodology and the process of how they each arrive at many of their same points…and still, even in saying the same things, they have differing intepretations in the phrases they use.
It’s like examining the difference between a Sam Storms when he discusses the concept of God “ordaining” events and Joh
For me, its not a fruitless discussion as long as both sides are simply seeking to discuss together what the Word says. And if I came off antagonistic in any way or combatitive, that’s my bad. Its no my intention. For my desire is simple understanding of how one sees a specific point/comes to that conclusion. That doesn’t require one to agree on all points as much as it simply is a matter of addressing other factors when it comes to making a stance…..and thus, why it was said that I was open to discussing the scriptures (Hundreds) you felt supported you—-as I brought out the ones I thought were not addressed…as well as seeking agreement with you on the scriptures you brought up/other ones that line up with the point you were making.
Much love, Bruh…
@ Jon Paden,
Yes
@ Gabriel,
No I don’t believe you are combative, what I am saying is that we have a fundamental disagreement and there is no way to reconcile it. Its like a Calvinist and an Arminian have a discussion about soteriology. There is no benefit in the discussion. I hold to the total providence you don’t anything we discuss about it will just be water off a ducks back.
@ Elder John,
Yes Sir! I think the biggest focus is that God has given us Christ and that is enough
Ultimately, much of the discussion comes down to the issue of how we are to view those struggling economically—and whether God desires for them to be there…or, if he wants them comforted.
Specifically, the main thrust is how do we view the poor—in light of the view that those born impoverished are perhaps destined to be there rather than it being a matter where choice/circumstances determined their lot.
Scripture does say that we’re to be about addressing injustice wherever we see it (Exodus 23:1-3, Exodus 23:5-7, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 16:18-20, Deuteronomy 16:19-21, Deuteronomy 24:16-18, Deuteronomy 27:18-20, 1 Samuel 8:2-4, 1 Kings 10:8-10 , Job 31:12-14 , Psalm 9:15-17, Psalm 33:5
, Psalm 50:6, Psalm 140:12, Ecclesiastes 5:7-9 , Isaiah 10:1-3 , Isaiah 11:3-5, Isaiah 29:20-22 , Isaiah 59:3-14, Isaiah 58:5-7, Jeremiah 22:12-14, Ezekiel 9:8-10 , Hosea 12:5-7, Amos 2:6-8, Amos 5:6-24, Micah 3:8-10 , Zechariah 7:8-10, Malachi 3:4-6, Matthew 23:22-24, Luke 11:41-43, )—with the Lord mentioning repeatedly he was quite TICKED off whenever his people chose not to live it out….or, in many cases, lay an issue of injustice at his feet that He did not cause.
—————
Job 8:3
Does God pervert justice? Does the Almighty pervert what is right?
—————–
We understand, of course, that even Jesus was caused to suffer injustice by God’s Sovereign Design–as seen in Acts 8:32-34 when it came to the humiliation Christ suffered on the Cross. But we also understand how often the scriptures make clear that issues of injustice for those discomforted were never of God’s Heart…
James 1:27 says straight out that “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”
Honestly, its a good discussion worth wrestling with…
Gabriel,
That wasn’t the premise of my post at all. Providing for the poor and alleviating poverty has nothing to do with this post. Maybe you should reread to see the premise.
Lionel,
I’d disagree (to a point)—as even a Calvinist and an Armninian can have disagreements and realize that there are issues whenever others teach extremes in theology, just as it is with both sides discussing those not representing them best such as Hyper Calvinists and Hyper Arminianism. There’s also the issue of how often both Calvinists/Arminianists have worked together when it comes to other issues. Sam Storms, who is a Reformed Charismatic, has often noted this when it comes to his support of others such as Jack Deere and Mike Bickle in line with views of a broader work of the Holy Spirit that isn’t often seen in extremely conservative circles. The same goes for Calvinists and Arminians both agreeing that the poor should be aided as God calls us to do so—while also denouncing those in “Health and Wealth” theology….just as it is here int his discussion when there has already been mention given on much of the theology being wrong.
Discussion on views of the poor/their destiny have occurred in many other venues—and thus, there doesn’t seem to be any need for it to occur here. I’ve already made clear that I support Total Providence—though as also said, there are many variations of that with other factors attached to it. Molinism makes good sense of the rest of it (IMHO)—but with Total Providence, again, its not as if variation on it means no discussion can happen. That’d mean one would have to agree with you to have real discussion
L,
In your words:
As you said in your post repeatedly, anyone teaching that Christians should be comforted is teaching false teaching…with you using the example of other CHristians going through persecution and poverty. However, as I brought up, there were countless calls in the scriptures where we were to be about seeking to address the suffering of others, alleviating that and helping them to have comfort—with the scriptures given where God repeatedly said to ignore the discomfort of others when injustice is involved is not to serve the Lord. I acknowledged that many times God called us to suffering….but I also brought up the point that in many instances, God made clear that it was not His CALL for others to have diseases (as is the case with others drinking contaminated water that we in the West often cause)—or lack of adequate medical provision due to wars/bad infranstructure..or, when perseuction occurs, for us in the West to simply sit back/salute them—-as is the case with many organizations working with persecuted churches and how those churches ask for Physical aid, including smuggling children out of the country (much like Paul who often fled from persecution so that they can have a better life…rather than being thrilled they are being persecuted.
Later, you made the claim that some Christians are called to be poor/suffer–as seen here:
That was said directly after I made a post saying how God desires us to alleviate the plight of the poor and that many times poverty is of our OWN making…therefore obligating us to address it/take responsibility for it and helping others be comforted. It seemed the point you made on the poor being called to be in poverty was in line with your original post that God called some to suffer.
Again, I read the post…
Gabriel,
I will post this and then I am most likely done on the issue. I never said God DOES NOT WANT US TO BE COMFORTED. Not once have I said that. And now you are being antagonistic. Reread the post. The post is concerning the teaching that God wants every Christian comforted. This would be a blantant lie or you are calling Paul a liar, because PAUL HIMSELF SAYS “IT WAS GRANTED FOR YOU TO SUFFER”. Who granted them the suffering? The same person who granted them the belief (read the text I included which is Philippians 1).
I never said that Christians should sit back and allow injustice, poverty or antying, especially given the fact that Jesus seperates goats from sheep, John writes about loving people by meeting physical needs, and finally James saying that a working faith is that of taking care of the widow and orphaned.
Now if you don’t believe God made them orphans or widows thats fine, but as far as I can tell it is God alone that gives and takes life. If someone else you know can take a life apart from God allowing it, let me know.
Please don’t put stuff in my mouth. My post is about the fact that people teaching that God wants everyone to have a good life is a lie. Or the writer of Hebrews is lying in Chapter 11, Paul is lying in Phillipians 1 and Thessalonians. Because Paul lays the blame of such suffering at the feet of God.
Essentially, it is claimed in the post that God called some to suffer…..and therefore, saying that God doesn’t want all others to suffer is bad teaching/something of error on the part of others teaching “Health and Wealth” theology. However, there’s a repeated call in scritpure for believers to address suffering/injustice for ALL wherever they see it—-as has been said before when God often got angry at others for either neglecting it—or thinking that it was something He wanted others to go through it (Exodus 23:1-3, Exodus 23:5-7, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 16:18-20, Deuteronomy 16:19-21, Deuteronomy 24:16-18, Deuteronomy 27:18-20, 1 Samuel 8:2-4, 1 Kings 10:8-10 , Job 31:12-14 , Psalm 9:15-17, Psalm 33:5
, Psalm 50:6, Psalm 140:12, Ecclesiastes 5:7-9 , Isaiah 10:1-3 , Isaiah 11:3-5, Isaiah 29:20-22 , Isaiah 59:3-14, Isaiah 58:5-7, Jeremiah 22:12-14, Ezekiel 9:8-10 , Hosea 12:5-7, Amos 2:6-8, Amos 5:6-24, Micah 3:8-10 , Zechariah 7:8-10, Malachi 3:4-6, Matthew 23:22-24, Luke 11:41-43, )
Thus, if God calls us to seek Justice/aiding the poor and destitute and seeking to address issues of injustice wherever we are—-just as the Good Samaritan did in Luke 10:25-39—one logically lives out the mindset that God desires all others to be comforted.
However, if one believes that God ordains all forms of suffering, then where is the logical rational for getting involved in any of the sufferings of others? When it comes to “Voice of the Martyrs” and others—be it in India or China and other places—saying they’re asking for physical aid for discomforts and others to get involved so that jobs could be made that families could provide for one another—–how does one say “God called you to go through this…..” and then give into the request by aiding them in comforting physically?
If one sees children starving due to bad water /contamination, then how does one say “God called you to die…” and then still talk of trying to aid others/saying its wrong when their food supply is damaged? Bear in mind that these are things you noted before..as discussed in “Young Black and Reformed Part II: We Skipped Over Samaria” ( http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/05/06/young-black-and-reformed-part-ii-we-skipped-over-samaria/ ) and “Young Black & Reformed Part III:Theology and the Reformation, Great Awakening & Jim Crow” ( http://blackandreformedministries.com/2008/05/08/young-black-reformed-part-iiitheology-and-the-reformation-great-awakening-jim-crow/ )—and a couple of other places where even in your discussing God’s Providence, you made clear that as a Reformed person there’s no room saying other suffering should either be ignored..nor should it be claimed that many of their plights were by God’s DESIGN
……
That’s what’s being wrestled–and trying to process…
Lionel,
It was already acknowledged, Bro, that you said flat out that there’s nothing wrong with discomfort—though you also said that’s its wrong to say that all Christians everywhere comfortable. That was the context in which I was discussing us being COMFORTED—-for when aiding others in where they’re struggling, we’re also ensuring that they are comfortable. That’s what many in struggling nations have made clear when we help them in their struggles, give them aid and address issues of injustice. ..and thus, why it was discussed. For it can come off a bit like splitting hairs
.Not being antagonistic—as again, discussing the issue. No one has name called–and if discussing an issue is labeled antagonising/wrestling through it, then most of the blog is antagonistic.
.
Nonetheless, the same Paul who said that also discussed many times the issue of ensuring that the poor being taken care of and He agreed with the Torah when it came to addressing issues of injustice….things dealing with comfortabiltiy. This is why it was asked how you deal with the rest of the scriptures, as Paul said far more than “It was granted for you to suffer…”. Being called to suffer doesn’t mean that Paul was saying it was for ALL times/seasons or that all things the Phillippians experienced were ordained by God. Otherwise, in that same text, he would not have discussed the issue of having gentleness be known to all as it concerns one’s witness…and the many times throughout scripture he noted that believers should seek to live in peace with others and that many instances of pain they brought on themselves.
Never did I say that you said we should sit back. I asked how do you renconcile that others are called to suffer with our call to address injustice/aid others who are suffering.
Seeing that Abel was killed/had his life taken by his brother in Genesis 4:1-13 and God noted him as a murderer for taking the man’s life ….just as he did repeatedly ( Genesis 9:4-6, Exodus 21:23, Leviticus 19:16, Leviticus 24:17, Deuteronomy 19:21, 1 John 3:10-16 )…yes, I do see where God made clear others can take life. In the ultimate sense of being able to throw someone into Hell/Eternal life, that’s another issue.
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I’m not trying to, Bruh
That I see–but I also see where many times Paul and others made clear there’s nothing wrong with desiring to prosper oneself physically/emotionally. Suffering is something we’ll ALL go through—but in light of the larger theme of Torah which repeatedly said that being comfortble many times was not a problem and the basis behind why we aid others in the Gospel, I don’t know if its complete.
Gabriel,
Thanks for the interaction have a great weekend.
As scripture says..
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” 2 Timothy 3:12
Hebrews 11 goes into great depth discussing the issue of others in their journey’s of God–WHERE they experienced great discomfort many times…..even though there were also many times consistent where there things that were very much comfortable for them. Love that chapter
Be Blessed Too, L may the weekend be a joy
Okay! So back to the original post
Just want to say from my over-the-hill view-point… the farther along I get on this journey, the less earthly comfort appeals …
been through a few less-than-comfortable times and places along the way, and it’s been most of all in those spots along the journey that I’ve found real comfort, as i’ve learned to find it in Father’s care and presence…
so much so, that more and more i actually yearn for less “comfort” so that I might gain more true comfort…
does that make any sense to you?
Yes Maam