MEN, WOMEN & EQUALITY IN CHRIST: A Bible Conference
Aug 16
MEN, WOMEN & EQUALITY IN CHRIST
You are cordially invited to a conference that should be challenging and encouraging to the Body of Christ!
“Men, Women & Equality in Christ”
Sept 19-22, Emmanuel Baptist Church, 2505 West Owen K Garriott Rd, Enid, OK 73703-5299 (church phone 580-237-0602)
For information contact Jon Zens, jzens@searchingtogether.org or 715-338-2796; or Wade Burleson, wwburleson@hotmail.com
Jon will be giving eight 30 minute sessions, starting Sunday night, with Q & A. These sessions will be videotaped.
Session 1 — Genesis 1-3
Session 2 — Women in the Old Testament
Session 3 — Jesus & Women in the Gospels
Session 4 — Women in the Book of Acts
Session 5 — Women in Romans
Session 6 — Women in 1 Corinthians
Session 7 — Women in Ephesians & Philippians
Session 8 — Women in 1 Timothy & Revelation.
Jon has been researching, reflecting, and writing on the issue of gender in the church since 1981, and is the author of What’s With Paul & Women? Unlocking the Cultural Background to 1 Timothy 2. He graduated with honors from Canoga Park (CA) High School (with majors in English, French and Math), Covenant College (B.A.), Westminster Seminary Philadelphia (M.Div.) and California Graduate School of Theology (D.Min.).
“So when God created man and woman, he made us the way we are—with the differences of manhood and womanhood—so that we would be suited for these complementary roles (and for the other expressions of complementarity outside marriage). In this drama man was meant to play the role of Christ, and the woman was meant to play the role of his bride the church.
And we have stressed for five weeks now that these differences are not the result of sin. Sin didn’t create manhood and womanhood. God did. And sin did not bring diversified, complementary roles into existence. God did. Before sin ever entered the world, God ordained and fitted Adam to be a loving, caring, strong leader for his wife Eve. And before sin entered the world, God ordained and fitted Eve to be a partner who supports and honors that leadership and helps carry it through. Both in the image of God. Both equal in their God-like personhood. But also different in their manhood and womanhood. The pattern was beautiful. They respected each other and served each other and complemented each other and enjoyed each other.” (John Piper sermon Manhood, Womanhood, and the Freedom to Minister preached June 18, 1989)
John,
Do you take the position that a Christian female can lead a Christian man at her “secular” job?
BTW,
The author has addressed this book in this review.
http://searchingtogether.org/articles/women-piper.htm
His email is included in the post. So you should address him directly; however, I can interact with my question.
Thanks for the link but I wasn’t addressing any article, I was addressing the content of this site.
I have read numerous sermons by Piper on the key passages that are brought to bear in this argument. (ie. Eph. 5; 1 Tim. 2; 1 Peter 3 etc…) In every one of those sermons he takes the complimentarian role. My point simply was that you have him as a link and he clearly would be in the complimenatrian camp. I just found that interesting.
To answer your question, yes I think it’s ok for women to be in authority over men in secular work and I base this on the fact that there were women rulers in the Scriptures. (Debra, the Queen of Sheba, Queen Candace etc…) But I do take the complimentarian view when it comes to the home and the church, based on the texts cited above and others.
But what this was about was really your blog entitled, Does “Biblical” Manhood Put Undue Pressure On Families? , in it you said, “Based off of the first two bullets, I believe that the bible may be wrong on gender roles and may be guilty of perpetuating some aspects of the curse.” You really believe your cultural argument negates clear commands in the scripture? I think it’s interesting that everyone who takes the egalitarian view certainly believe the requirements in those texts that are placed upon men are still in place, only the ones regarding women are now nullified by our culture.
I will say though I appreciate the fact that you allow people to post opposing views on your site thank you.
John,
I would argue that Debra would not be “secular” leader as Israel was a theocracy under the law of God. That would make her very much a “spiritual” leader as well as a “secular” leader as there was no spiritual/secular realm as it relates to Israel as “God’s people” God’s Law guided every facet of their life and to make that distinction would be totally contradictive.
I don’t know if you relly understand my position as I believe the Holy Spirit takes the lead in the home. And the most mature person would be the first to exhibit the qualities of Christ WHICH BOTH SEXES are called to do. For example Philippians 2:1-3 is not gender specific. Ephesians 4:32 would not be gender specific. As a matter of fact there is no command in scripture that Paul requires from New Covenant ethic that is gender specific.
Finally I do believe women are to submit and man are to lead. Now how that looks may be totally different than that of Complemetarians teach (though there is a great diversity even within that group, some believing Christian wife could not be the president of the U.S). But then that leads to this question. What happens when a husband and wife work together and she is his boss? Rather direct report or he reports to someone who reports to her? Would that be sin also?
But yes I enjoy Piper’s, Mohlers (though I disagree with his fundamentalism), MacArthur as a matter of fact I am really big follower of the Gospel Coalition and many Reformed brothers. Some of my favorite teachers are Sproul, Ferguson, Azurdia, Ken Jones, Dale Ralph Davis, Douglas Moo, Thomas Schriner and a book I use to help disciple husbands is “The Exemplary Husband’ which is highly complimentarian.
I just fall under the conviction that what that looks like practically isn’t what was intended in scripture, especially given the limited amount of information and almost mute practical outworking of that in the bible.
I do welcome diverse comments as someone is sure to change my mind. I look forward to interacting with you.
At our website, http://www.searchingtogether.org, is a 6,700 word review article of John Piper’s “What’s the Difference?” Also, this review — slightly edited/enlarged — appears as a third appendix in my book, “What’s With Paul & Women? Unlocking the Cultural Background to 1 Timothy 2.”
There are many evidences that must be considered in Gen 1-2 that point to Adam/Eve being partners (God said to “them” have dominion…) not in a hierarchy of man over woman. I don’t see anywhere in Gen 1-2 where Adam was told that he was over Eve, or that Eve was told Adam was over her. Instead, they are both told to work together in their tasks on earth.
It seems to me that John Piper emphasizes male/female “differences” and then assumes this means each sex has certain “roles” and ends up with a position that makes all women on earth subservient to all men on earth. As I pointed out in my review, based on his own words in Piper’s ideal world, men would accomplish what is important, and women would not directly influence men.
Thanks for stopping by Jon. I hope that what you are sharing with the body of Christ helps others see things more clearly.