Blogging: The Joys and Sorrows
Aug 27
Blogging has been a great experience for me. Before I continue I want you to look at some other places I have blogged and you will see the evolution of Lionel Woods.
http://anunveiledface.wordpress.com/
http://urban-theologians.blogspot.com/
http://www.blackandreformedministries.com/
It is so funny to read some of my older posts. Actually downright hilarious. So let me talk to you about blogging if I can.
The Catalyst
I originally set out to blog to wrestle with theological issues. In 2004 I was introduced to Reformed Theology and for the first time in my Christianity I felt at home. What I mean is that Reformed Theology taught me that thinking was okay. I used to remember sitting around and trying to discuss things with people and having neither a platform nor any receivers to have such discussions with. Honestly I don’t even know how I found out about blogging. No clue actually. I think the first blog I ever saw was www.pulpit-pimps.org and maybe I googled false teachers.
There I found a place where I can discuss things, it was an outlet and I would spend hours going back and forth with people. It was a relief. I no longer had to sit around frustrated because God had provided me an outlet I was overjoyed but……..
Self-Realization
As I said I would spend hours at night going back and forth with people. I vilified those who didn’t agree with me, I realized that I was a bit “smarter” than my foes and I would use numerous tactics to dismantle, pulling out theological terms that I regurgitated from others, slicing and dicing my opponents at every whim. I was actually proud that I dismembered my foes online and when someone didn’t return a comment, I claimed myself to be the victor! How great is that. I am not only engaging others in theological debate but also winning debates so I thought…
What I soon began to realize is that I was polarizing my brothers and sisters. I was hurting people and even though it was behind a keyboard I was “biting and devouring” those who had been saved by the same blood. Those who had been extended the same grace undeservingly as I had and I began to realize that rather face to face or online my obligation to love others was not an option it was demanded by the one who loved me so tenderly.
A Personal Email and the Right Path
On the Black and Reformed website I used to have a “Good Church” list and a “Bad Church” list. On the Good list were those that agreed with me. Piper, Dever, Mahaney, Acts 29, some PCA churches, some Reformed Baptist Churches and then on my Bad list were churches like Potter’s House, World Changers, and their affiliates (usually the mainstream ones) and then in small writing I had “and whoever else accepts their teaching”
Well one day, a young lady sent me an email. She told me how she was heartbroken, how she was offended and told me if I even had any kindling of the Holy Spirit I would take those lists down because they were wrong and unloving. Boy oh boy did she set me ablaze. I sat down that night and typed about a 2 page email blasting her, calling her a heretic, including links to all the false teaching articles that had been written, links to other blogs who had researched those teachers and I topped it off with a “if you love Jesus you would recognize this”.
Well I went to click send and the Spirit stopped me. He told me to read her email again and then read mine and tell Him who was actually displaying the fruit of the Spirit. I cried that day and repented. I did send the girl an email and I did tell her I think the teachings of these individuals could be dangerous but I also told her I would take my list down and I apologized for hurting her and others. A section of scripture I had read a thousand times jumped off the page and was applied to my heart.
Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. 15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
The Evolution of an Arrogant Blogger
I began to change my tone, and though I remain confident and sometimes sarcastic, it isn’t to prove others wrong but to drive discussion. Over the last few years I have changed positions on things I knew for sure, so now the only things I know for sure is that Jesus physically rose from the grave, He expects, even demands obedience, where I fall short is called “grace” and I am sure that something I wrote about will change, not everything but definitely something.
My evolution involves an inner humility, a persistent grace, and most of all a teachable disposition. I no longer write with the intention to sting, though what I write may sting, especially for those entrenched in tradition. My hopes is that just one person may begin to think critically about the faith and what it means on a daily basis. I don’t go after “false teachers” actually I don’t even think I have written anything about that type of stuff in a long long time. I am more concerned about God’s love for us, how we live towards one another and how we function as a body. I believe if you get those three right, things such as prosperity teaching, bad theology and other types of false teaching will become evident.
So Blogging?
Blogging has been great, I have gained some self-awareness. I get to interact with some very intelligent people, I have learned how to be more patient, get thicker skin and not to hold on to my convictions to the point where I polarize my brothers and sisters, even if it is online. Not to mention I have met some people and gained some friendships that I think will last into my dying years. Lawrence, the Mercadels, Tyris, Hutch, Gabriel. I talk to these people on the phone on a reuglar basis. Oh yeah and some spiritual mentors, such as Alan, Aussie John and Dave Black (all from blogging). Some I have met in the flesh others it feels like I have met them and eat with them often. My blogging time has been fun, producing both joys and sorrows and I encourage everyone who has this type of personality to do it. I hope to continue the interaction and learn from others. God bless.
Good post man…
I’ve noticed the tremendous growth in you. To God be the glory.
Thanks Jeff and Jon,
Jon I contribute my annihilation position to you, but you have to come on back on the other stuff
I still think you da man, Lionel. Keep on keepin’ on bro!
You coming down here this year Brother Dave?
Good post overall, but too bad you can’t see that God didn’t preordain/predestine folks to hell, because they weren’t “special.”
Seeker,
Actually it is sad that you can’t see that God didn’t leave humanity to conjure up enough man made spirituality to be saved, because if He did we would all be in hell
It has nothing to do with manmade spirituality; it’s about God being a just God, and not an elitist God. Many on your side of the aisle are so worried about “works”, “works,” “works,” to where you totally perverted the meaning.
If God predestined you to be saved, via the free gift offering of salvation, don’t you have to accept it? Isn’t that a “work”? If someone gives me free money, or offers it to me, isn’t there a process in which I must accept it?
God dying for everyone, and opening up the door for everyone to be saved, whereas some respond, and some do not, has nothing to do with whether those who responded are good, or bad; naturally inclined towards godliness or not. Human beings aren’t robots, to where we don’t have a will, for we do, and if we use that will to answer God’s call, it doesn’t mean that we’re more inherently righteous, or better than others who don’t respond to the call.
I believe humans to be depraved and all, but your side of the aisle takes it too far. Human beings are capable of choosing good, or evil, despite being under the curse of sin. Sinful people make righteous decisions and perform righteous actions, everyday. Again, we are not robots who are going through the motions at the whim of a perverted God who’s stacked the deck against certain folks.
This type of belief came about by those who were tired of not being able to justify certain people not coming to Christ, as well as those who wanted a simple answer to human beings states in life. In other words, if a person suffers in this life, and/or never comes to God, it’s because God made it that way-SO THERE!
If a person suffers as a slave, or an addict all of their lives, and God doesn’t deliver them, it’s because God wanted it that way-SO THERE!
If I burn folk at the stake (like the Puritans who were Calvinist), kill slaves, and steal land, it’s because God ordained, because if he didn’t, it wouldn’t have happened-SO THERE!
God’s dealing with man in scripture, in both Old and New Testaments, don’t follow that pattern. Yes God is sovereign, but that’s an attribute of God, whereas the essence of God is LOVE.
God has the type of love where he stands at the door to everyone’s heart, and will make himself accessible to all. If human beings fates result in a Christless eternity, the humans have no one else to blame, BUT THEMSELVES.
I believe they have no one to blame but themselves also, I also believe that those in heaven will have no one to thank but God.
I agree!
I’ll be in the Big D next week. Wanna do breakfast on Friday?
Speaking on Ethiopia? Friday will be tough have any other availability?
Yes and no. I’m doing research for my next book at the DTS and Univ. of Dallas libraries. Then we’re speaking on Ethiopia Sunday morning and evening. Becky will be with me and we’re staying with her folks in Murphy. I could do Saturday morning if that’s better. Let’s make it happen!
Can you email me your nubmer again please Sir? Thanks.
Just send me a personal email bro and we’ll go from there.
Let me hear from you soon, L. dblack@sebts.edu
Yes Sir.
Is it a sin to drink alcohol?
Seekerman,
No.
Okay Lionel, if Christians in heaven have no one to thank but God, then those who wind up in hell, well-WHO DO THEY HAVE TO THANK? How do you guys rationalize and crystallize this position?
In other words, you believe that man can’t work his way into heaven, to the point where-according to your strict interpretation-man can NEVER make the choice to come to God.
Okay, I understand that belief, EVEN THOUGH I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THIS BELIEF, but having said that, or on the same token-CAN HUMAN BEINGS DO ANYTHING TO EARN THEIR WAY INTO HELL, SEEING AS HOW THEY CAN NOT DO ANYTHING TO EARN HEAVEN, EVEN CHOOSING GOD, despite the scripture warning us to work out our own salvation.
If you can answer this question truthfully, and without the prejudices of your theological lenses, then you may win a convert to your side, but until that time, well-you know what I believe about your monergism already…
Oh, and by the way, the above question isn’t a trick question, but a fair question…
Sin earns your way to hell. And “all have fallen short” as the New Testament writer says.
Lionel,
Do you believe that all were born into sin without choice?
Seekerman,
Do you believe in annihilation of all those who do not repent from sin in this present age?
Or do you believe in everlasting punishment?
The Bible also say to choose God, and to work out your salvation. With that said, you’re right, sin does earn our way into hell, HOWEVER, do the human beings committing the sin, have a choice, or are they “spiritually hardwired” by God for such eventual damnation?
Martin Luther, the theological founder of your belief system said:
“”Man is like a horse. Does God leap into the saddle? The horse is obedient and accommodates itself to every movement of the rider and goes whither he wills it. Does God throw down the reins? Then Satan leaps upon the back of the animal, which bends, goes and submits to the spurs and caprices of its new rider… Therefore, necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF WHAT IS EVIL (emphasis mine) as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on
those who merit it not, so also does He damn others who deserve not their fate.”
(‘De Servo Arbitrio’, 7, 113 seq., quoted by O’Hare, in ‘The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, pp. 266-267.)
Martin Luther also said this:
“Be a sinner, and LET YOUR SINS BE STRONG (emphasis mine), but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides… No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
(‘Let Your Sins Be Strong, from ‘The Wittenberg Project;’ ‘The Wartburg Segment’, translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther’s
Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521).
I believe that folks who don’t come to Christ will suffer eternal banishment from the presence of God, HOWEVER, I do believe that the descriptions of hell are metaphors.
But that’s not my focus on this thread, as you can see where I’m going. I’ll deal with that some other time. Right now I’m dealing with a topic, I feel is far more important. People suffering in the afterlife, even if it’s for a season, will work itself out on the other side of this life.
Right now it’s far more important that folks know that everyone has access to God, through Jesus Christ, if they just reach out and believe.
Jon,
I believe the human will is bent towards sin. I don’t believe that God “hardwired” it into humanity. Adam and Eve were born Sinless.
Seeker,
I preach that all have access to God; whomever God chooses to bestow His saving grace on is His choice. Again you have the burden of proof my friend. You seem to not have a problem with God flooding the entire earth yet sparing only 8. You don’t seem to have a problem with God only choosing ONE nation out of MILLIONS to give His revelation to. No other nation had access to God accept one why don’t you have a problem with that God? Aren’t they the same. If God choose to reveal Himself today to certain people would you find offense in that? This has been His practice since He has revealved Himself.
Here’s what John Calvin said about Michael Servetus, and possibly killing him, because of theological differences:
“If he(Servetus) comes(to Geneva), I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight.”
“I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty.”
In Geneva, on October 27, 1553, Michael Servetus was tied to a stake and was burned slowly to death:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/articlesnew/11716.html
The strongest recorded statement from Calvin on the Servetus affair is a 1561 letter from Calvin to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre, in which he says intolerantly:
“Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.”
“Calvinism goes into a realm of human philosophy. It is NOT a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy appealing somewhat to the proud mind.”
“Of course there will be exceptions. Some people who are Calvinists do love Christ in their hearts and so feel His moving of concern for sinners. And most Calvinists will profess that they believe in the preaching of the Gospel to all the world. But in actual practice. Calvinism cuts the nerve of soul winning on the foreign mission field as it does at home.”
God could not predestinate one to do right and another to do wrong, one to be saved and one to be lost. Those who believe that God predestined some people to be saved by God’s coercive grace, and that others are predestined to be lost and cannot be saved because of God’s deliberate choice, are foolishly wrong. They are wrong in having a doctrine that goes totally against so many emphatic Scripture statements inviting all to be saved, showing that Christ died for all, that God is not willing that any should perish. The Bible pictures man as a free moral agent capable of choice, he is morally responsible.
There is the nature of man as it is pictured in the Bible and as it actually exists. God breathed into Adam’s nostrils and he “became a living soul.” He was made in the image of God. And what is this about man that is God-like? He is a reasoning creature with a moral responsibility, a conscience toward right and wrong, with the freedom of choice in right and wrong. The simple truth is that men can make a computer which can go through complicated mental processes of adding, subtracting, remembering, judging, hundreds of times faster than man can do it! But the computer has no will, no conscience of right or wrong. Hence it has no personality. It lacks the God-given moral nature of man.
Why did God allow Adam and Eve to fall, and so bring a curse on the whole human race? It was inherent in the kind of being that God created; man must be allowed to choose. But knowing man sometimes would choose wrongly, God planned with His Son before the world began to offer an atonement for the salvation of sinning men! So Christ is “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”
http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/bible/calvin.html
God will work out things as he sees fit, for he is not stagnant to a particular method of reaching people, and manipulating circumstances. This is why he’s truly SOVEREIGN, and not the other way around. Sometimes God will preordain a particular action, so that he can ultimately get an intended result. He saved 8 souls, so that those souls can produce more human beings, so that they can produce the line of people that was set apart, where the messiah (God in the Flesh) could physically spring from. In other words, those 8 souls were saved for humanity’s greater good-not so that they can produce human beings who are preordained to be saved, whereas others will be damned to hell.
And yes, he did utilize the nation of Israel as his conduit, apart from other nations, in order for his divine agenda to eventually proliferate. And even though God was practical, in dealing with a single genetic line, in that the line would inevitably produce the Messiah in the flesh- GENTILES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WERE STILL ALLOWED TO WORSHIP THE ONE TRUE GOD IF THEY CHOSE TO OBEY HIS STATUTES.
So in essence, God putting aside a nation, was a practical choice that had to be implented, so that a righteous act can follow, but this doesn’t mean that God is enslaved to this method of operation, perpetually.
Lionel, according to your logic, Adam and Eve was sinless, yet all of the human beings wills, birthed from Adam until now, is “towards sin,” because of Adam. This sounds like hardwiring to me, by any other name. To say it’s not hardwiring, is to split hairs, especially if you believe that God not only knew Adam would sin, but PREORDAINED ADAM TO SIN, SEEING AS HOW GOD-according to your logic-PREORDAINS EVERY ACT.
So if Adam was born sinless-according to your logic-it was because he wasn’t born guilty of a trangression that God preordained and hardwired in his spiritual system, to commit.
Human beings are not soulless robots and androids, with no possible way of being sentient. God didn’t create us that way, instead he created us with certain communicable attributes of God (creating, thinking, being angry, ability to choose, showing love and feeling it, being jealous, etc.)-because we were made in his image.
My last post on John Calvin:
“As the Roman Catholics of 1415 burned John Hus(14) at the stake over doctrine, John Calvin, likewise, had Michael Servetus burned at the stake. But was doctrine the only issue? Could there have been another reason, a political one?
“As an ‘obstinate heretic’ he had all his property confiscated without more ado. He was badly treated in prison. It is understandable, therefore, that Servetus was rude and insulting at his confrontation with Calvin. Unfortunately for him, at this time Calvin was fighting to maintain his weakening power in Geneva. Calvin’s opponents used Servetus as a pretext for attacking the Geneva Reformer’s theocratic government. It became a matter of prestige — always the sore point for any dictatorial regime — for Calvin to assert his power in this respect. He was forced to push the condemnation of Servetus with all the means at his command.”(15)
“Ironically enough, the execution of Servetus did not really bolster the strength of the Geneva Reformation. On the contrary, as Fritz Barth has indicated, it ‘gravely compromised Calvinism and put into the hands of the Catholics, to whom Calvin wanted to demonstrate his Christian orthodoxy, the very best weapon for the persecution of the Huguenots, who were nothing but heretics in their eyes.’ The procedure against Servetus served as a model of a Protestant heretic trial …. it differed in no respect from the methods of the medieval Inquisition …. The victorious Reformation, too, was unable to resist the temptations of power.”(16)
Is it possible for a man such as John Calvin to have been a “great theologian” and at the same time to act in this reprehensible way and afterwards show no remorse? Dear reader, do you have a heart that could, like John Calvin, burn another person at the stake?
Let us illustrate this another way. Suppose a man from your congregation with a reputation for being a spiritual leader captured your neighbor’s dog, chained it to a stake, then used a small amount of green kindling to slowly burn the dog to death. What would you think of such a person, especially if he afterwards showed no remorse? Would you want him to interpret the Bible for you? To make the matter even worse for John Calvin, a person, unlike a dog, is created in the image of God! Like it or not, we can only conclude from this evidence that John Calvin’s heart was darkened, and not enlightened, as a result of his murderous hate for Servetus. At best, Calvin was spiritually blinded by this hate and therefore, spiritually hindered from rightly dividing the word of truth.(17) At worst, which was apparently the case, John Calvin himself was unsaved, according to Scripture:
“But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death” (Rev. 21:8).
“We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, ‘I know him,’ but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him” (1 Jn. 2:3,4).
“And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding [continuing] in him” (1 Jn. 3:15, NKJV).
The Greek adds an important word to 1 Jn. 3:15 that is sometimes omitted in English translations. That word is “continuing” or “abiding” (NKJV) and states that murderous people don’t have eternal life continuing in them.
Dear reader, since murderers are unsaved and John Calvin was a murderer, then Calvin was unsaved! Moreover, since the unsaved are darkened in their spiritual understanding (Eph. 4:18) and Calvin was unsaved based on Scripture, then Calvin was darkened spiritual understanding.
Jesus said we can “know” people by their fruit (Mt. 12:33) — be it John Calvin or anyone else! Similarly, the Apostle John wrote:
“This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother” (1 Jn. 3:10).
Can you say Calvin did what was “right” regarding Servetus? If not, then doesn’t this make him a “child of the devil,” according to this verse and others already cited? Though some will rant and rave over this conclusion, can we Scripturally come to any other?”
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ashes.htm#back13
You know what- I know a reformed blogger out there, who may have the same heart of John Calvin, and if it weren’t for living in these contemporary times, with 20th and 21st century sensibilities, HE WOULD PROBABLY BE ANOTHER JOHN CALVIN, BUT ONLY FOR BLACK FOLKS.
Lionel,
Who created the human will to bend towards sin?
Or who knew that the human will, once created, would bend towards sin?
Obviously God. So is it just to condem them if the creator provided no means of escape from this “will” that was created to “bend towards sin”.
Seekerman,
No rush for your response, but please respond when you feel ready.
You stated:
“eternal banishment from the presence of God”
Wouldn’t this be eternal spiritual death?
If so, how do you explain the scriptures that deal with God destroying death and sin forever?
Jon,
Whatever God does is just.
Seekerman,
I don’t believe in total predestination so your arugement isn’t with me. I believe in partial predestination.
Seeker,
Also there were many Christians who were slaverowners, there were many Christians who sprayed blacks in the face with waterhoses, others killed Indians, many killed Native Mexicans and so forth. Can Calvin be a Christian and do what he did? Sure, do you sin? By the way I am not a Calvinist. Whoever believes that Calvinism stops at the Doctrines of Grace have no clue what Calvin taught. Calvis was very much a Thenomist and I am not.
Define yourself, in regards to partial predestination.
Having said that, if someone perpetually commits an egregious sin, and lives comfortably with a perpetual, or partial, egregious sin, feeling no remorse, or unction from the spirit towards repentance, sorrow, or regret, then I greatly question their salvation. At the very least, they are in total defiance and rebellion against God, willingly, whereas again- I question their salvation.
It’s a difference between being truly saved, as oppose to being religious and disciplined within being religious. Some folks live and breath christianity and religion, and have all of the trappings of a dedicated christian (e.g. reading the bible; strong on doctrine and scripture; know how to proclaim stereotypical churchianity phrases and quotes; attend church, or a house church, regularly; etc.)because it’s a lifestyle that gives them personal fulfillment, and THAT’S JUST WHAT THEY DO.
Other folks live and breath the faith because THEY’RE TRULY SAVED.
In the end, Only God knows best on how to separate the wheat from the tares.
Jon, if you want to discuss this with me, then email me. This isn’t the time nor the place, neither will I entertain your position on this thread, because of the subject matter, and where I’m aiming.
Simply put, as I said before (which left you greatly offended by me, but like a masochistic woman who loves to be beaten by her abuser-despite what she wants others to believe-to where she keeps coming back for more)-you’re like a pesky fly, hovering around a picnic table, or a card game.
Another possible telltale sign of a christian who does wrong, but is too prideful to admit to the wrong, is if they ease up on the wrong doing, and try to make things right in their own way.
I can say more on this, but folks who are spiritually mature will know where I’m coming from, because they themselves fit the mold.
“We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, ‘I know him,’ but does not do what he commands is a liar and the truth is not in him” (1 Jn. 2:3,4).
“And you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding [continuing] in him” (1 Jn. 3:15, NKJV).
“This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother” (1 Jn. 3:10).
Seekerman,
The sly remarks were not neccessary. Especially from someone who claims to have the love of Christ in them and knows that the comments will be offensive to the other person.
Seeker,
To your comment about “gentiles could worship the one true God” is actually a misleading statement. Gentiles would have NEVER heard of the One True God unless they were in that region. God chose not to reveal Himself thus “electing” one people group to salvation while ignoring the rest. Would you agree with that?
Now to partial predestination. I believe the bible teaches there are events God predestines (the betrayal of Jesus, the hardening of Pharoh’s heart, Joseph being sent to Egypt, the 450 years of slavery in Egypt, the destruction of the temple in 70AD….) but there are other events that He does not (for example when Israel disobeyed and He was going to kill them but Moses intercedes, the suicide of Judas, the lying of Annias and Saphira….) So there is an openess of God where God allows humans to operate and function and allows evil to sometimes run its course.
In other words Sovereignty is misunderstood by Calvin and the Reformes (Piper included). Sovereignty means complete reign it doesn’t necessitate controlling every historical event, I had to come to this conclusion in my own mind especially with dealing with evil and sin. There is no way we can look at a Father and say God predestined the death and rape of your daughter. No! This was done by the free will of a human hand, now we can say God allowed such an event. But I believe God allowed this event in the creation of humanity not at that second. Just because God knows doesn’t mean God does it.
So that is what I mean. Clear as mud water on a foggy night?
Lionel said:
Seeker,
My response:
Yeah what’s up?
Lionel:
To your comment about “gentiles could worship the one true God”
My response:
Yes?
Lionel:
is actually a misleading statement.
My response:
How so?
Lionel:
Gentiles would have NEVER heard of the One True God unless they were in that region.
My response:
My statement wasn’t misleading because Gentiles were able to freely come to God, in the Old Testament, even though they were not of the “elect” nation, or chosen ethnic group of people. You knew the context of where I was coming from, in that it was refuting your position that God only chooses certain folks for salvation, whereas he closes the door to other folks. Your model was that God does indeed elect certain people for salvation, via the nation of Israel paradigm you invoked.
What I responded with was the notion that God does indeed elect certain things, or preordains certain things to come about, based on a divine plan, agenda and purpose, but he doesn’t work that way ALL OF THE TIME. Therefore God, in his sovereign knowledge and master plan, propped up a particular nation and/or ethnic group to make way for a genetic line that will eventually produce the Messiah-this is the reason why God had to practically separate a line of people. HOWEVER, the evidence foreshadows God’s modus operandi, when it comes to all humanity having access to him, in that even Gentiles, UNDER THE OLD COVENANT, whether they were in close proximity or not-COULD COME TO GOD FREELY, IF THEY OBEYED HIS STATUTES.
And as far the region argument of yours, well-GOD WAS ONLY DEALING WITH A SELECT GROUP OF PEOPLE, FOR HIS OWN DIVINE PURPOSES, WITHIN A CERTAIN GEOGRAPHICAL REGION, WHICH WAS THE ONLY PRACTICAL THING HE COULD’VE HAVE, OR CHOSE TO HAVE DONE, WITHIN THE RUBRIC OF THE OLD COVENANT! But it still didn’t prevent folks who were near this light, from freely coming to God, if they chose to, and if their hearts were pricked, now does it? Remember, this is the OLD COVENANT we’re dealing with here, as it relates to God having separated a people and land, even though there were types and shadows inherent in how he would eventually deal with humanity, within the NEW COVENANT: whoever will come, let them come.
So no my brother, my statement wasn’t “misleading.”
Lionel said:
God chose not to reveal Himself thus “electing” one people group to salvation while ignoring the rest. Would you agree with that?
My response:
I believe that God revealed himself to general humanity, it’s just that one group of people, via Abraham, decided to grasp onto the concept of the one true God of the Bible, even though they were spiritually no better than their gentile neighbors in their desire for sin and rebellion.
But again, even though he “elected” an ethnic group that would provide a genetic for the coming Messiah to come through, he nevertheless allowed non-jewish people to come and worship him, if they obeyed his commandments.
Lionel said:
Now to partial predestination- I believe the bible teaches there are events God predestines (the betrayal of Jesus, the hardening of Pharoh’s heart, Joseph being sent to Egypt, the 450 years of slavery in Egypt, the destruction of the temple in 70AD….) but there are other events that He does not (for example when Israel disobeyed and He was going to kill them but Moses intercedes, the suicide of Judas, the lying of Annias and Saphira….) So there is an openess of God where God allows humans to operate and function and allows evil to sometimes run its course.
My response:
Okay, I can agree with that.
Lionel said:
In other words
My response:
Uh-huh?
Lionel said:
Sovereignty is misunderstood by Calvin and the Reformes (Piper included).
My response:
Okay?
Lionel said:
Sovereignty means complete reign it doesn’t necessitate controlling every historical event,
My response:
Okay?
Lionel said:
I had to come to this conclusion in my own mind especially with dealing with evil and sin.
My response:
What do you mean…?
Lionel said:
There is no way we can look at a Father and say God predestined the death and rape of your daughter. No!
My response:
Lionel, I have heard folks from your side of the aisle, who have basically stated such belief. One guy, who I know live in the flesh, argued the “fact” that God preordains every act, and has everything in control (oh and this cat advocated home church too). This was during the time when I was quite ignorant of reformed theology (5 years ago), and what it really taught, and the overall impact of such a charge against God (every act is ordained by God; therefore God is the author of evil, according to Martin Luther’s logic). To make it plain- if God is the author of evil, and every evil act, then God must have a vile, lascivious, wicked and macabre, imagination and desires.
Simply put, he must be the Devil, and Jesus Christ-SATAN IN THE FORM OF MAN!
But I knew this wasn’t true, and the Holy Spirit didn’t allow me to get sucked into the vortex of such a belief (even though a lot black nominal, or committed Christians, looking for a closer walk with the Lord, were trending this way, because of their vulnerable state), even when I was vulnerable, and looking for a deeper walk and knowledge with God; thus my moniker: SEEKERMAN!
It’s as if the Holy Spirit drew me away from the new modern day trend, that’s been afflicting those Christians, and growing number of black Christians, towards what they view as a “deeper” meaning of God’s sovereignty: REFORMED THEOLOGY!
Lionel said:
This was done by the free will of a human hand, now we can say God allowed such an event. But I believe God allowed this event in the creation of humanity not at that second. Just because God knows doesn’t mean God does it.
My response:
You do know that this is a basic Arminian position (i.e. biblical position), and not a classical reformed position?
Lionel said:
So that is what I mean. Clear as mud water on a foggy night?
My response:
I hear ya.’
Jon said:
The sly remarks were not neccessary. Especially from someone who claims to have the love of Christ in them and knows that the comments will be offensive to the other person.
My response:
Jon, the remarks were necessary, simply because YOU KNOW BETTER. I’m not dealing with someone who’s innocent, because we’ve been down this road before, to where you know how I operate, in that I don’t like to be distracted from a particular point that I’m on, and for you to persist in trying to distract me, even though you know I don’t like it, and despite the fact that I previously gave you a firm, yet gentle, admonishment, just lets me know that you yourself aren’t working from a loving, and mature, christian vantage point.
Therefore the pesky fly analogy is apropos, and everything entailed within that analogy.
Sometimes folks must be admonished for their wrong doing, even if it OFFENDS them. Just because someone is offended by a proper assessment of them, and just because you know the truth will offend them, doesn’t necessarily mean that the person doing the assessment, or admonishment-IS SINNING.
To suggest otherwise, and/or pretend to not know nuanced the differences-IS MIND CONTROL AND SOPHISTICATED MANIPULATION.
I meant to say in the last paragraph:
“To suggest otherwise, and/or pretend to not know THE NUANCED differences-IS MIND CONTROL AND SOPHISTICATED MANIPULATION.”
Seekerman,
This may be my last comment with you considering how nasty you can be in return. Notice my previous comment to you:
“No rush for your response, but please respond when you feel ready.”
And yet you go off on me with the intent of offending. Like I said before, those sly remarks were unneccessary.
Jon, you just don’t get it-YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE ASKED ME TO NOT ONLY RESPOND, BUT YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE INJECTED YOURSELF INTO A DISCUSSION THAT I WAS HAVING WITH LIONEL, BY BRANCHING OFF ON ANOTHER TOPIC AS IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT.
Where is your discretion, and christian charity in that? Did I not even offer you my email in my first address/admonishment to you, but despite me doing this, you nevertheless said this:
“Seekerman,
“No rush for your response, but please respond when you feel ready.”
Me again:
If this is all you said, then you may have a point in pulling up this quote of yours, and using it against me, so as to prove a point-but why in tar nation, did you have to say this:
“You stated:
‘eternal banishment from the presence of God’
Wouldn’t this be eternal spiritual death?
If so, how do you explain the scriptures that deal with God destroying death and sin forever?”
Me again:
These words of yours betray the fact that you wanted to continue this discussion on THIS forum, with ME, and not by way of my email address. In other words, you want to entangle me within a debate, you think you have an advantage in (people are always underestimating me, and thinking that I’m an intellectual lightweight; maybe that’s a mask God has given me, in that in my weakness, I am made strong through the grace and power of God), on a PUBLIC forum, and not in a more private space, via the email, or possible conversation over the telephone.
Your desires in this matter are carnal, and you needed to be called on the carpet for it. Again, you’re not innocent, and everything I said about you, needed to be said, heard, and read, because it is most definitely-APROPOS.