The Word of God and the Canon of Scripture
Jun 02
I have come to the conclusion that I no longer believe in a closed Canon. I can’t with a reasoning mind. I believe that Revelation is still being given directly to God’s people in multiple ways. But anyway here are some reasons why.
1. The writers of scripture never ever talk about a closed revelation (please don’t quote The Revelation, please).
2. All revelation from God was not recorded, I am not saying that God wasn’t involved in what was recorded, I just don’t know if it were planned out the way we have it today. God revealed a lot of things to a lot of people that never made its way to becoming canonized and since this is the case, we would have to say the canon we now possess is incomplete which obliterates the sola scriptura notion. For instance Philemon.
3. The writers of scripture are limited by their experience. This includes technology, knowledge, geography and maybe even science. The writers of scripture were fixed to a certain geographical area and political and economic culture. Things might have been written much more different if the Gospel ufolded under different circumstances.
4. The true word of God is living and still speaks and is not silent and He never told us to rely solely on the ancient writings nor future writings for our ethic and decision making but on the Spirit.
5. Finally, it is hogwash when two people believe in sola scriptura and yet don’t agree. This is impossible for me to understand. Either both is wrong, one is right or if both is right then we have to conclude that the scriptures are not objective as we make them out to be.
Anyway this is something I am currently wrestling through. God bless.
Good to see you still posting and wrestiling. I was wondering what happened to you.
Hey Brother-
Welcome back.
Are you saying that writings by Christians today can be considered to be scripture and authoritative or are you saying that God has always used means other than just the written scriptures to reveal Himself?
I have always believed the later, I believe that Hebrews 1:1-2 is clear that God’s primary mode of revelation is not the written word but as you have indicated the Living Word, the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, His actions and His words as the indwelling presence of teh Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God and that He will lead us into all truth. This was one of the primary positions of the Anabaptists that the re-birth and subequent indwelling testimony of the Holy Spirit is what governs and energizes the Christians life and actions. I also believe that when we sojourn in real community with our brethren that God reveals Himself to the community regarding group and individual situations through corporate prayer and group teaching and sharing/prophecy being weighed by the body of Christ/the church.
Hutch,
Let me aswer with a question then some quick responses. Do you believe that there is any ethical issue not clealry documented in scripture that should be binding on all Christians? Not talking implied in scripture, I mean forthright clear.
1. I don’t believe the bible is “THE” only authortity.
2. I don’t believe that the bible is the complete revelation of God.
3. Thus I believe the bible to be lacking on what God has said, and will say to His people.
Even when I was in a DPM-Bible Church that held to a cessationist position, I never was one who thought the gifts had ceased, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit by wich we are sealed unto the day of redemption and the distribution of enabling gifts to build up teh body is the distigushing marker of the New Covenant.
Oh, and thanks for clarifying your position.
Love ya, BTW was that kickball you are playing over on your facebook page? Your son looks like he was having a ball as you hauled him around like that!
Hutch,
Thanks a bunch man, yeah we were at a picnic and it was Hades hot out there man. But yeah it was a load of fun. BTW, what do you think of my question? Do you believe all ethical issues have been fully addressed? I will give you an example. I think the church should come together and clearly denounce things like slavery.
I see what you mean, I actually think the scriptures are crystal clear on slavery as being a terrible evil adn something that only those who will not inherit the Kingdom of God would participate in, did you ever read my paper on Slavery and the Slavers misinterpretation of Genesis and the Bond-Slave?
I see your point about people that verbally confess to be Christians who have disagreed on this issue, but I believe that the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit/the law of the Spirit of life in Christ will lead God’s children into the truth of what the scriptures plainly teach about slavery and those who distort the scriptures in order to attempt to justify their sinful actions are not those who are led by the Spirit but are devoid of the Spirit and not Christians at all.
We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers {menstealers/those who sell slaves/enslavers/slave traders} and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, -1 Timothy 1:9-10
Kidnappers/Menstealers/Those who sell slaves/Enslavers/Slave Traders are lawless and rebellious, ungodly sinners, unholy and profane-they are not Christians.
Its like Jonathon Edwards and John Newton, both clamed to be Christians one boughta nd kept slaves his entire life and one after coming to Christ renounced slavery, who was regenerate? Who was convicted about the wrongness of his actions evidencing the Law written on the Heart and the Holy Spirit leading him into the truth about righteousness?
Lionel,
You stated:
“Do you believe all ethical issues have been fully addressed? I will give you an example. I think the church should come together and clearly denounce things like slavery.”
My response:
Do onto others as you would have them do onto to you. Love does no harm to a neighbor.
So can one be a slave owner and yet still abide by these rules?
Wouldn’t these scriptures be enough to adequately address the slavery issue? So why is there still confusion regarding this?
I believe the confusion stems from a wrong understanding of what role “servants” played to their “masters/overseers” as opposed to “slaves” to their “slave owners”. Here again various mistranslations of scripture can lead one to wrong conclusions about what is really being conveyed in a particular text of scripture.
BTW
What other ethical issues do you believe are not fully addressed in scripture?
Jon-
You are correct, Christ’s clear commands are actually very hard to misinterpret, they just have to be ignored in order to participate in Slavery.
Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. ~Abraham Lincoln
Jon,
I would have to think about it. Again I do believe most are implied but this implied text have not been so clear and so I believe we as the church can stand up and make a statement and make it binding. For the most part we can use some text but we have to read into those texts to make it clear.
Lionel-
Not trying to beat this issue to death and if we disagree, that is fine, but like Jon said, loving God and neighbor as ones self covers a lot of ground. Are people following Christ or not:
Don’t want to enslaved-don’t enslave others.
Don’t want to be beaten-don’t beat others.
Don’t want to be taken advantage of-don’t take advantage of others.
Don’t want to be raped-don’t rape others.
Don’t want to have your property stolen-don’t steal from others.
Want compassion-extend compassion to others.
Want grace and mercy-extend grace and mercy to others.
The fact is teh slavers even though some claime dto eb Christians, they blatantly refused to follow Christ’s commands in this area and many other areas and proved to not be His disciples.
If you love me, obey my commands…if you do what I say you are my friends…the slavers were not disciples of Christ, they did not love Him and were not His friends.
Hutch,
You stated:
“If you love me, obey my commands…if you do what I say you are my friends…the slavers were not disciples of Christ, they did not love Him and were not His friends.”
My response:
Do you think there are different degrees of love. For instance, we all have failed to obey all His commands all the time as we are continuing to grow in Him. So is this love that is referred to in scripture a “perfected” love in which all commands will be obeyed all of the time? Can we honestly say that they or us have had no degree of love for Christ if we have disobeyed Him at all in the past?
Hutch,
I don’t disagree but if it were that simple, Jim Crow, Manifest Destiny, the 30 year war and a host of other things would never had happened. These people actually used the bible for their defense. Thus if we had something considered scripture that would prevent anything like this from ever transpiring a more recent document where the church agreed I think it can be prevented in the future.
Jon & Lionel-
Great questions, I am enjoying the dialogue. Both of your questions and comments require longer answer for my position to be clear and not misrepresented than I currently have time to give, but I will respond in more depth as I can.
Jon, your and my conversations may alwasy have a certain amount of misunderstanding involved due to teh fact that I think you and I interpret certain terms differently and our basic understanding of what God’ eternal purpose in Christ is will also cause us to somewhat be talking past each other.
My short answer for now, before one is in Christ, one is a slave to sin and death. When the scriptures speak of those who are in that condition, those who will not inherit the kingdom of God, they are said to “practice” such things. Practice indicates that the overall thrust and actions of their life and heart are to engage in sinful, evil behavior and thought patterns. The good news is that it does not say that if anyone has ever done those things, it says those who practice such things, continually honing their skills at living in sin.
On the other hand, those who are in Christ receive a new nature and are new creations in Christ, they are said to “practice” righteousness and are enabled and motivated to do so by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The over-arching theme of a beleivers life is to pelase Christa nd to obey His commands, my udnerstanding is that teh commands of Christ are those contained in the gospel accounts and not the fulfilled Old Covenant Law Code. Believers are not sinlessly perfect this side of the eternal state, by the love of God poured into their hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to them motivates them to obey Christ and love God, their neighbor, their brother and their enemies.
I guess our disagreement is over the issue of who is a Christian and what the kingdom of God is during this age.
I do not think that America, its founding documents, its political parties or its laws are an expression of the kingdom of God.
America as a whole is like all other nations a part of the fallen world system that by and large expresses the fallen sinful unregenerate nature-it practices sin.
I also do not think that the majority of people in any geographic area including the US are Christians/new creations although many claim to be.
The kingdom of God is expressed individually and corporately those who are truly born again/the regenrate who manifest themselves as sons of God by obeying Christ, loving God, their neighbor, the brother and their enemy by the motivating and enabling presence of the Holy Spirit.
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love[b] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. -1 John 2:3-6
9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[c] to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. -1 John 2:9-11
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.-1 John 3:7-10.
16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence. 1 John 3:16-19
23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.-1 John 3:23-24
Interestingly there have been Anabaptist communities in America/or what would become America in 1683 they abhored slavery and never practiced it as they cleraly saw it as a violation of teh law of Christ as all who are led of the Spirit will.
Like 1 John says those who claim to be brothers but do not obey Christ’s command to love are liars.
Corrected version, I failed above to distinguish what part of the answer is addressing Jon’s questiosna dn what part is addressing Lioenl. Lionel if you ahve time, can you delete the first answer above?
Jon & Lionel-
Great questions, I am enjoying the dialogue. Both of your questions and comments require longer answer for my position to be clear and not misrepresented than I currently have time to give, but I will respond in more depth as I can.
Jon, your and my conversations may always have a certain amount of misunderstanding involved due to the fact that I think you and I interpret certain terms differently and our basic understanding of what God’ eternal purpose in Christ is will also cause us to somewhat be talking past each other.
My short answer for now, before one is in Christ, one is a slave to sin and death. When the scriptures speak of those who are in that condition, those who will not inherit the kingdom of God, they are said to “practice” such things. Practice indicates that the overall thrust and actions of their life and heart are to engage in sinful, evil behavior and thought patterns. The good news is that it does not say that if anyone has ever done those things, it says those who practice such things, continually honing their skills at living in sin.
On the other hand, those who are in Christ receive a new nature and are new creations in Christ, they are said to “practice” righteousness and are enabled and motivated to do so by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The over-arching theme of a believer’s life is to please Christ and to obey His commands; my understanding is that the commands of Christ are those contained in the gospel accounts and not the fulfilled Old Covenant Law Code. Believers are not sinlessly perfect this side of the eternal state, by the love of God poured into their hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to them motivates them to obey Christ and love God, their neighbor, their brother and their enemies.
Lionel-
I guess our disagreement is over the issue of who is a Christian and what the kingdom of God is during this age.
I do not think that America, its founding documents, its political parties or its laws are an expression of the kingdom of God.
America as a whole is like all other nations a part of the fallen world system that by and large expresses the fallen sinful unregenerate nature-it practices sin.
I also do not think that the majority of people in any geographic area including the US are Christians/new creations although many claim to be.
The kingdom of God is expressed individually and corporately those who are truly born again/the regenerate who manifest themselves as sons of God by obeying Christ, loving God, their neighbor, the brother and their enemy by the motivating and enabling presence of the Holy Spirit.
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love[b] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. -1 John 2:3-6
9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[c] to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. -1 John 2:9-11
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.-1 John 3:7-10.
16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence. 1 John 3:16-19
23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.-1 John 3:23-24
Interestingly there have been Anabaptist communities in America/or what would become America in 1683 they abhorred slavery and never practiced it as they clearly saw it as a violation of the law of Christ as all who are led of the Spirit will.
Like 1 John says those who claim to be brothers but do not obey Christ’s command to love are liars.
IOW, Jim Crow, Manifest Destiny, the 30 year war and a host of other things were not conceived of and implemented by Christians just by liars who called themselves Christian. My wife although blond haired and blue eyed is on the Cherokee Indian Tribe role, she has relatives whose birth certficates say “Indian Territory” so we know all about the genocide.
Hutch,
I agree with what you stated. I probably should have been more clear in what I wanted to convey. I previously stated:
“So is this love that is referred to in scripture a “perfected” love in which all commands will be obeyed all of the time? Can we honestly say that THEY or us (Lionel, you, and I) have had no degree of love for Christ if we have disobeyed Him at all in the past?”
The “they” I was particularly referring to was anyone (including SOME former slave owners) who may have been believers in Christ (only God truly knows if they were or not) but failed to obey all of His commands all of the time. The scripture you quoted may imply a “perfected” or “complete” love that may not have yet been realized in a particular believer.
So is it that they have no love at all for Christ (believers who fail to obey all commands) or that there love (maybe measured in different degrees or stages) has not yet been made “complete” or “perfected”?
5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly MADE COMPLETE in him.”
Hi Jon-
Jon: Hutch,
I agree with what you stated. I probably should have been more clear in what I wanted to convey. I previously stated:
“So is this love that is referred to in scripture a “perfected” love in which all commands will be obeyed all of the time? Can we honestly say that THEY or us (Lionel, you, and I) have had no degree of love for Christ if we have disobeyed Him at all in the past?”
Hutch: No, that is not what I am saying. God’s love is not perfected in me, but it does reside in me and is being perfected in me with tangible evidence to prove the reality that God’s love as the scriptures states has been poured into my heart through the Holy Spirit given to me.
Jon: The “they” I was particularly referring to was anyone (including SOME former slave owners) who may have been believers in Christ (only God truly knows if they were or not) but failed to obey all of His commands all of the time. The scripture you quoted may imply a “perfected” or “complete” love that may not have yet been realized in a particular believer.
So is it that they have no love at all for Christ (believers who fail to obey all commands) or that there love (maybe measured in different degrees or stages) has not yet been made “complete” or “perfected”?
5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly MADE COMPLETE in him.”
Hutch: Christians do fall into sin, no doubt about it, but they are also convicted by the indwelling Spirit when they do fall into sin. Again, my previous comments spelled out the meaning of “Practice” as it relates to sin and righteousness in the scriptures.
Unbelievers “practice” (work hard at, engage-in in- order to excel at) sin, Believer’s on the other hand are said to “practice” righteousness as the overall theme of their life.
So, back to the question at hand. Jesus in the gospel of John (although the gospels are some of the last scriptures to be written, Jesus spoke these words prior to any written NT scripture) that he would not leave His children as orphans and that He would send a Counselor, the indwelling Spirit to lead His children into all truth and to call to mind and remembrance what Jesus had taught them/commanded them.
The term lead, indicates that those who experience this Counselors ministry will be taken to a destination, a destination of understanding God’s truth and Jesus’ words/commands, an understanding of truth that does not come from words written in a text but and understanding that comes supernaturally from God Himself.
So back to the slaver who says he is a brother in Christ, we would have to assume that he can be a brother in Christ who is not being led into truth by the Holy Spirit.
He would have to look into another human beings eyes and consider him or her to be an animal (Jesus and the Spirit does not do this or teach this), he would place individuals in chains and beat them if necessary to “keep them in line” (Jesus and the Spirit does not do or teach this). Perhaps he actually visited the slave market and saw people treated like cattle and commodities, the males stripped naked to show their physical condition so they can draw more money as beasts of burden, I could speak more on this but it would get even more unseemly and degrading (Jesus would cloth them and set them free and the Spirit would teach a child of God to do likewise). Any slaver would have to have know how Africans and others were transported here and in what conditions, he would also know about the separation of man from wife and children from parents, about the sexual abuse, advantage and manipulation of the women, the pitting of “house Negro” against the “field workers” in order to manipulate and control. The slaver would have to go to bed each night knowing how individuals on his property are being treated and how the whole institution works with all it degradation and inhumane treachery for his own personal financial gain and not be convicted of his sin, night after night, week after week, month after month, year after year…no conviction of the Holy Spirit = absence of the Holy Spirit.
Now what if that individual hears the gospel and embraces the gospel is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and now is a new creation walking in newness of life what would we expect to happen? He would do what Newton did not what Edwards practiced, he would set his slaves free and renounce the system like many did.
In the absence of that happening in and light of a life that claims to be Christian yet continues to “practice” the multitude of sins that is slavery, then 1 John testifies against that individual that he is a liar and the truth is not in him.
Hutch,
We may be talking past each other. My point was that it would seem that one can have some love for Christ even though they have failed to obey Him at all times. Some (I don’t think you) may say that the scriptures are clear that no one professing to be a believer has any love for Christ if they don’t obey all of His commandments all of the time. For Christ said if you love me you will obey my commands. My point was that it would seem that you must grow to this level of love in Christ (perfected/complete) and that just because you may disobey Him in the future or in the past it does not neccessarily mean that you have no love at all for Him. It’s just that your love has not been made complete yet. That is why I asked could there then be different levels or degrees of love that the believer progresses through.
Jon, if you have a pattern of sinful behavior (i.e. that of a slaver), especially a pattern of behavior that is sinful, after you supposedly came to Christ-then at the very least, your love for Christ should be questioned, if not your salvation.
Where’s the controversy at?
Seekerman,
I understand what you are saying, however some patterns of sinful behavior may not be fully broken immediately upon coming to Christ. Every individual is different and therefore must be dealt with differently by God in order to break down their stubborness in any particular area. This is where the love, mercy, patience, longsuffering of God comes into play. I am also well aware of scriptures that warn against continued disobedience, but I don’t think anyone but God knows how much will be tolerated by Him before they are eventually cut from the vine or spewed out of His mouth.
My initial thought on love progressing to perfection/completion was in regards to the scripture that states that you will obey if you love Christ. So some may say then, if you disobey at all in the past or future you must not love Christ based on that scripture. That is why I stated that this love referred to must be a completed/perfected love which I and I’m sure many others are still striving to obtain. Based on Hutch’s responses to me, I felt that he may not have fully understood the point that I was trying to make.
Hopefully this will finally clarify my initial thoughts on this discussion.
I hear what you’re saying, but if you claim to be in Christ, and you were a rapist before you were “saved”, and remain a rapist after you are saved, until the day you die, then I will reeeeeeeeaaally begin to question whether you were ever truly saved.