Just To Be Clear
Apr 30
I want to be clear about something. I want to include a small doctrnial statement to preface the posts going forward and a few things that I am questioning. Just in case :0
1. I believe in the virgin birth, eternality, divinity, sinlessness of Jesus Christ.
2. I believe in the physical death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. I believe that salvation is a FREE GIFT from God by grace. This grace was made possible through the sinless life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ALONE.
4. I believe that all who reject this free gift will be eternally cutoff from God.
5. I believe that all whom God extends grace, lives are hidden in Christ and are righteous (not sinners) and will never bear the wrath of God.
6. I believe all who God extends grace will be physically raised from the grave and will be given everlasting life (I believe eternal life to be Christ life).
Things I am questioning
1. The inspiration and inerrancy of the biblical authors.
2. Hell as described by an everlasting place where people will burn/perish forever.
3. How the free gift of God is obtained also known as moergism/synergism.
4. Sovereginty defined as determinism or Reformed Sovereignty vs. Open Theism.
5. Ecclesiology (always reforming)
God bless.
Amen.
Here is my abbreviated confession of faith:
I believe in God, who is my only Father, and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, my only Teacher and Leader and Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified to pay for the penalty of sin, was dead, and buried; and on the third day He rose from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and is seated and reigning at the right hand of God the Father, those who believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ receive forgiveness of sins, life everlasting, new life in Christ and the resurrection of the body, one day He will return to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit who indwells and seals all believers unto the day of redemption and who through His power and presence leads God’s children into all truth.
If you are in Christ, then you are my equal brother and sister and belong to the same church that I do as there is only one church, My communion with the saints occurs whenever and wherever I meet with the saints around Christ as the church, I respect and keep no special days, My giving is done in order to help the needy, I learn from whoever accurately holds forth the Word of God as lead by the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ is the only true authority in the church, my only law is the Law of Christ, I will make no vow to any organization and expect none from my brothers or sisters, I respect all people, honor my spiritual brethren and give double honor of respect to older and wiser believers who are known as sacrificial servants to all/elders, I owe no man anything except a debt of love.
90 page doctrinal statement available to the morbidly curious.
^do you have a link to said doctrinal statement,lol
Lionel, wow, the last series of post have been incredible. It amazes me how the Lord works in us. I have been wrestling with so many of the same issues now for season as well. I have really enjoyed your sharing and the comments of the others. Your list of things you are questioning goes right along with my own, except for number 1, and who knows, I may question that later. I have others (you probably do as well, just wanted to keep the list short). Thanks for the honesty, I see Christ stirring a lot of His own, to shake us down to the core. As long as we hold on to Him, and the few basics (as you and Hutch have mentioned) we will continue to grow in Him. Keep seeking Him, and keeping sharing, as it is encouraging to me to share in the journey. Thank again, John Morris.
Lionel-
Are you going to elaborate on scriptures that you find to be in error in a future post? I still find no errors in the scriptures, although I have changed my positions on what a number of the scriptures are actually saying, my position is that all the scriptures when properly translated and interpreted are without error. I think it would be interesting to discuss the possible errors that you perceive.
Hutch,
Here are a few.
1. The earth is flat
2. The moon gives light
3. The sky is solid (fixed)
4. The sun revolves around the earth.
Now again I am not saying that this proves a bunch other than the fact that humans write from their own perspective. There are a few more in Psalms maybe Job. I have heard some good responses against such verses, but the ulimate answer is that they did not have the scientific knowledge that we now posses. Here is one last one.
1. Women were the problem with bearing male children. Thought?
Lionel-
I did not know the scriptures taught that the earth was flat, the sky is solid and that the sun revolves around the earth.
The moon does give light, reflected light from the sun when the sun is on the other side of the earth from where we are.
Can you tell me the verses you are referring to when you have time? I’m not challenging you, I just honestly did not know the bible teaches the earth as being flat, I thought the bible clearly taught that the earth is round/circular in the verses I mentioned earlier.
I don’t understand the last question, can you clarify?
Hutch,
You can google them
, some of the easiest refuting of science, now again these answers can be basically attributed to metaphoric speech; however, for years the church and the world held such views (until technology at least).
Hutch,
To my last question if you read the scripture both infertility and male child bearing or the lack there of was directly the result of the woman’s problem. This was widely held for years also.
Lionel-
Are you talking about attitudes and opinions of people or are you saying that you know of scriptures that teach that the world is flat, the sky is solid and that the sun revolves around the earth?
If so, I want to know what verses you are referring to, if they do not exist then you are taking about human wisdom being in error, not the scriptures.
Because the scriptures are without error.
Why do you want me to google them? If you are convinced that the bible teaches that the earth is flat, the sky is solid and that the sun revolves around the earth, then obviously you would know where those teachings are located. You know your way around the bible better than I do.
I didn’t know scripture taught that the earth was flat, or about women and bearing male children.
Now, there is an old wives tale that says if a woman is the aggressor in the bedroom (as much as her disposition will allow it), then the child will be a male child, whereas if the man is the aggressor in the bedroom, the child will come out female.
Here are some basic ones Hutch, some of the others are questions of the Ark as it relates to the saving of the animals and a few other things. We see throughout the New Testament and even with Elizabeth about infertility in women.
(copied and pasted, I looked the verses up and without some metaphorical type of interpretation we would be in trouble. This doesn’t mean that the scriptures are false but that there is human perspective to be sure these were widely held we only need to remember Christopher Columbus and the fact that women were always divorced because of infertility).
False scientific facts in the Bible
Insects do NOT have four feet
Lev 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth
upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the
earth;
Lev 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and
the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the
grasshopper after his kind.
Lev 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet,
shall be an abomination unto you.
They have six. In fact, NOTHING that can fly has four feet.
Rabbits do not chew their cud
Lev 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
They only appear to, due to mistaken human perception. How could an all knowing God not know this?
Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt nor dust
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
The bat is not a bird
Lev 11:13 These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are
detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture,
Lev 11:19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.
Deu 14:11 You may eat any clean bird.
Deu 14:12 But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture,
Deu 14:18 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.
The bat is in fact a flying mammal.
Snails do not melt
Psalm 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like
the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
The Earth is NOT flat!
Yet these verses indicate that the Earth must either be flat, square or rectangle!
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
How can the Earth have four corners if it’s sphere-shaped? Four corners indicate either a flat, square or rectangular structure!
Likewise, notice the structural disposition of the Earth assumed by these verses.
Psalms 67:7 God will bless us, and all the ends of the earth will fear him.
Psalms 135:7 He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!
Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth.
Isaiah 41:9 I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.
Isaiah 5:26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations, he whistles for those at the ends of the earth. Here they come, swiftly and speedily!
Daniel 4:10-11 These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there
before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.
Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Mark 13:26-27 At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
Romans 10:18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
How can a round sphere have “ends”? Also, in regard to Psalm 135:7, winds do not come from storehouses! So much for Biblical meteorology. And from Daniel 4:10-11, how can a tree be tall enough to touch the sky? Did the infallible Bible writers think that the sky had a roof? Also from Daniel:
Daniel 4:20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth…
No matter how tall that tree is, there’s no way it could be seen to the “ends of the Earth” on a spherical body! Likewise,
Isaiah 18:3 All you people of the world, you who live on the earth, when a banner is raised on the mountains, you will see it, and when a trumpet sounds, you will hear it.
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain,
and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Luke 4:5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
Since astronomical bodies are spherical, you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace on it, therefore you could not technically see “all the kingdoms of the world” from one point!
Next,
Proverbs 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Zechariah 12:1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth…
A foundation structurally implies building a basement to the ground first to lay the rest above it!
Similarly,
Psalms 75:3 When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.
I guess the foundation of the world has pillars holding it up too?
Of course, in defense Christians will try to claim that these verses are only metaphors or allegorical, and not to be taken literally. But why don’t they take all the verses of their cherished fundamental doctrines and do the same as well? How do they decide what is allegorical and what is literal? And why should we trust their judgment on that?
The Earth is not motionless
Psalms 104:5 The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved.
1 Chronicles 16:30 Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
The Earth is moving constantly 24 hours a day in its path around the Sun!
The moon is not a light
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made thestars also.
The moon is not a light! You can only see it glow only because of the sun’s reflection off of it. During some of its phases, you can’t even see it at all!
Our sun is not the same age as the rest of the stars
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Scientists have observed and dated many of the stars in the universe to be millions or even billions of years older than our sun.
Stars are not little balls of light close to the Earth!
Revelation 6:12-14
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The Bible authors obviously thought that the stars were little balls of light that could fall to the Earth. They had no idea how big and how far away the stars actually are!
Wind is not held in storehouses
Psalms 135:7 He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
Brother Lionel
Concerning what it is you’re saying, I more than feel where you’re coming from. As it is, I personally wonder why it seems there is an issue over it since it is something that has been debated for centuries. Many people w believe in taking God at his word—though on the same token… how one interprets the Word/uses hermenutics makes a difference. People often said “take the word of God as it is” when it came to saying that only GEOCENTRISM was the valid view…
That all changed later in the Scientific Revloution when Galieo came along with support for heliocentrism/viewing scripture in the sense that not all passages were to be taken literally if it were a book of poetry or songs—especially the ones such as Psalm 93:1 and I Chronicles 16:30 on the Earth not moving. He based his views off of others like the early Church Father Augustine …who he noted that even with reading one needs to be cautious of interpretations being absolute if evidence outside the Bible contradicts it.
But with Augustine, I was very intrigued to see his thoughts on the matter. His views on scripture are the position that Galileo used when it came to many in the Church calling him a “heretic” when he defended heliocentrism, and claimed it was not contrary to those Scripture passages about the Earth not moving
It was a blessing to see how Augustine saw that the interpretation of the creation story is difficult, with him remarking that we should be willing to change our mind about it as new information comes up. Augustines’s thoughts caused him to take Creation Account as “allegorical” rather than literal—which if done today, would cause many in the church to go to war (and sadly, it happens still ALL the time)—but an allegorical interpretation does not necessarily preclude a literal interpretation, as interpreters such as Origen of Alexandria and Augustine of Hippo maintained that the Bible is true on multiple levels at the same time.
I’ll knock these out as I have time and interest but none of the verses you listed contain errors.
I’ll start with this one regarding the rabbit:
Rabbits do not chew their cud-yes, in a sense they do, God was not wrong.
English translations of the bible render it saying that rabbits chew their cud, that is not exactly what the Hebrew manuscripts state, the manuscripts say:
The rabbit/hare eats that which is brought forth again…
And that is exactly what they do, and that is why they were considered unclean under the Old Covenant.
Here is a fuller explanation.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-064/rabbits-chew-their-cud
Brother Lionel,
For more information on the issue of Galileo, one can go to Galileo affair—-as it discusses how, from antiquity, the majority of people subscribed to the Ptolemaic theory of geocentrism that the earth was the center of the universe and that all heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth. ..with this theory going with the limited scientific knowledge available at the time that agreed with a literalist interpretation of Scripture in several places, such as 1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, and Ecclesiastes 1:5
Here is one more for now:
Leviticus 11:20–23
All flying insects that creep on all fours shall be an abomination to you. Yet these you may eat of every flying insect that creeps on all fours: those which have jointed legs above their feet with which to leap on the earth. These you may eat: the locust after its kind, the destroying locust after its kind, the cricket after its kind, and the grasshopper after its kind. But all other flying insects which have four feet shall be an abomination to you.
The Bible in Leviticus 11:21 indicates that the hind jumping legs are not included in the four “walking” or “creeping” feet. The feet are the four front limbs used for walking and look the same. The back two limbs are primarily for long hops.
Although today, people lump them all together and say there are six legs, the Bible distinguished them here. The Bible referred to them in more detail than perhaps expected. Notice how the feet and legs are separated in the verses and referred to separately. The Bible is being very precise as to distinguish the front four from the back two. So, there is no contradiction at all:
4 walking legs + 2 hind hopping legs = 6 total legs
Brother Lionel,
If interested—for more info on Augustine and his thoughts on some of the things you’re noting— One can also go to “Augustine on Scripture and Natural Science”
Gabriel-
Exactly, people misinterpreted the bible to say something it did not say in contradition to the explicit teaching of the scriptures that the earth is circular or spherical. This is human error, not an error in scripture.
Augustine misinterpreted the scriptures as well, again, not an issue with the scriptures, but with mans understanding.
Actually, Brother Hutch,
Its not simply an issue of misinterpreting what the Bible said—but of others recognizing that the Bible was limited in many of the things it was seeking to explain…..and that Scripture is not infalliable. It is authorative–but not necessarily correct at all points as in the last word.
The very fact of how often it has been edited and re-translated is testament.
Even with Augustine misinterpreting the scriptures on some point, where did he do so……….how…and who has the FINAL say?
On a side note, for more info on Augustine’s views—-as its one of the reasons why there’s so much war over the issues of Creationism vs Evolution—one can go to For more info, one can go online and look up an article on the issue called “THE CONTEMPORARY RELEVANCE OF AUGUSTINE’S VIEW OF CREATION” ( http://www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/1988/PSCF3-88Young.html )
Hutch,
For example let me add. The writers of scripture taught that God made the earth shake in His anger, that water was stored up in the sky……
IMHO….
It really doesn’t seem that anyone can react to others saying all knowledge is not found in scripture—as by our actions, all show otherwise—as Gods Word does not show ALGERBRA, Physics, or any other science we use today. Yet we know that the Word is not exhaustive on all issues. It doesn’t say anything about Black Holes, Volcanoes or Ocean Trenches…or, for that matter, T.V and Computers/Internet and “FaceBook”. Yet when it comes to other things scripture does not say explicitly, we trip. Odd, IMHO, since many things are not in scripture we rely on–from Algerbra (from the Middle East), to Medicine from Hippocrates and the Greeks. Even the Socratic Method which all must learn in Law School was by a man not for the Scriptures—though his method on inquires are what all in our country use for court. I’m reminded of Acts 17:3 , where Paul identifies the altar “to an unknown god” as a groping after God, saying, “What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you” (vs. 23), later citing several Greek poets as pointers to the truth found in the gospel.
As said best by another, “Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance.” ( -Will Durant, US historian…1885 – 1981)..and it doesn’t seemas if we need to trip, as if anyone has gained the lock on truth….for we’re to be actively LEARNING as much as we may seek to be teaching…as “The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.” ( Proverbs 18:15 ). The Bible is not God…nor does the Bible contain all of God’s knowledge. For while the Bible gives principles that apply to every situation, it does not explicitly give us all the information we need to daily live our lives. I think part of the problem is that some Christians take the saying “the Bible says it, that settles it, I believe it” to extremes. Though the statement is absolutely true/should reflect how we view the Bible, God’s Word does not instruct us to abandon our brains or ignore our experiences. Everyone interprets life through a lens based on their personal history, education, experiences, values, etc…and though Scripture is authoritative, it is not authoritarian; reliable, but not dictatorial. Speaking of which, have you ever checked out NT Wright’s article, How Can The Bible Be Authoritative? I believe he does a convincing job of explaining the role of Scripture within the life of the Church, and essentially argues that the model of [some interpretations of] “Sola Scriptura” are actually too low of views regarding the scriptures: “We mustn’t belittle scripture by bringing the world’s models of authority into it”.
Hi Gabriel-
Scientists and theologians at one time thought the earth was flat, when it clearly is round, the scriptures have always stated that it is round, so the scriptures have always been right. Man had it wrong, God as always was right.
The scriptures are without error.
There is no error to be found in scripture. None.
Two of the points Lionel mentioned have already been refuted and proven the scriptures to be pin point accurate regarding the rabbit and flying insects.
For Lionel to say that these easily refuted so called errors is tantamount to debunking the inerrancy of scripture is just poor scholarship and a misrepresentation of the written word of God.
Of course God has the final say.
Water is stored up in the sky.
God is going to make the sky shake with His anger…its no big thing for Him to shake that which He created.
Gabriel-
I never said all knowledge is to be found in the scriptures. Did someone else say that?
I said the scriptures are without error.
There are plenty of things that the scriptures are silent on, but when it speaks to an issue it is pin-point accurate.
I see your tendancy to equate statements to me that I never made.
As far as it relates to the concept of the Earth Being “flat”—with Isaiah 40:22 referenced often—I think that Robert Sneider gave a good review on the issue concerning the claims of others saying that the Bible clearly teaches the Earth is Sperichal–as seen in “Does the Bible Teach a Spherical Earth?” ( http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Schneider.html )
There was recently another discussion on this very issue—concerning what the Word says and how much authority it has on all issues..that Lionel/I participated in—as seen in Rethinking Creationism in the light of Bruce Waltke’s Recent Resignation
May be of blessing..
Poor scholarship Hutch? I am only showing you what it says, now the guys in the answers of Genesis can come 2000 years later and have the scripture say things that NO ONE believed it said 2000 years ago. Everyone believe the earth was flat and that you would fall off, that women were the problem of infertility, that earth shakes (earthquakes) occur when God is mad and other such natural disasters. As it relates to the sky “storing up water” this was a direct reference to Genesis 1: 6-7 when it talks about seperating the body of water from the sky. Come on Hutch if you are going to throw out accusations at least be fair. It isn’t that Augustine misinterpreted, it is that he followed what had been widely taught and perceived for years. Only 2000 years later have these been “rightly” interpreted.
Hutch,
Never did I say that You said the Bible contains all knowledge…as the posting was given in regards to the original point of Lionel’s post and where he was trying to come from
If you’re going to attribute something to me I never said—as if all comments made were to you–please stop, as its not appropiate
Lionel-
Exactly, they were wrong, the bible was not.
Your still just supporting my point.
I hope its not hurting your feelings, but you have not shown me any errors in the scriptures, because you cannot, everything you have cited as an error is easily refuted and to say there are errors in the scriptures is a misrepresentation of the written word of God.
Sorry, I’m just telling you the truth in love.
Gabriel-
I thought you were addressing me, please forgive me brother. Would you please?
please stop?
ROFLOL
Poor scholarship Hutch?
Yes.
I am only showing you what it says, now the guys in the answers of Genesis can come 2000 years later and have the scripture say things that NO ONE believed it said 2000 years ago.
No they are just restating what it has always said.
Everyone believe the earth was flat and that you would fall off, that women were the problem of infertility, that earth shakes (earthquakes) occur when God is mad and other such natural disasters. As it relates to the sky “storing up water” this was a direct reference to Genesis 1: 6-7 when it talks about seperating the body of water from the sky. Come on Hutch if you are going to throw out accusations at least be fair. It isn’t that Augustine misinterpreted, it is that he followed what had been widely taught and perceived for years. Only 2000 years later have these been “rightly” interpreted.
Exactly, Augustine was following the errors of others, not the Word of God.
You don’t think God causes the earth to shake in His anger?
Thats just weird, how small a thing is it for God to shake His creation, its says that all things exist and consists/are held together by His power. He uses natural processes that He set in motion to shake the earth and He can if he choses directly intervene and cause the earth to shake if He wants to as well. Why wrestle against such a simple and obvious truth.
Hutch,
Okay.
Hutch
Cool..
Where was it ever said—or seen in scripture—that the earth was ALWAYS round? For that is what is being asked—and thus far, it has not been shown to say that the scriptures say the earth is spherical.
Actually, it would be better to note it was really one point somewhat, H-and on that, as it is, the points from “Answers in Genesis” have been refuted by other groups who have differing perspectives on the issue…especially as it relates THE ISSUE OF rabbits not chewoing their cud or having the same sstomach system as other cud chewers like cows”
With the issue of chewing cud, at best is is an issue of technicality–which is also a matter of error on some level. The Bible does say that rabbits chew the cud. As most people know, ruminant animals eat their food, swallow it, then regurgitate it and chew it a second time. This process is called “chewing the cud.” Rabbits don’t regurgitate their food, but they do eat it a second time. The process is called “coprophagy.” The rabbit sends its food through the intestines, then produces soft fecal pellets at night that it eats. The process seems similar to that of ruminants..but in no way is it the same. It is known that rabbits practice what is called “refection,” in which indigestible vegetable matter contains certain bacteria and is passed as droppings and then eaten again…and this is not necessarily the exact same as regurgitation, as Cows do. For more information, one of which one can go to Do Rabbits Chew A Cud?—-
One can also go to “Answers in Genesis needs to chew the cud again” ( http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/aig_rabbits_cud.htm )
But on the issue, of course there are points Brother L has brought up that I may not have issue with. That, however—even if given what appears to be a refutation—-does not equate to the issue of addressing all others where there’s issue..or that the issue of the scriptures not being the Final say on things has been settled.
Can’t see where that’s “poor scholarship”—especially in light of the NUMEROUS scholars on the issue that have been fighting over the matter for ages when it comes to issues in which the scriptures do not seem to be totally accurate on a host of things. And with many of the answers given, it seems to be very much what often happens whenever Young Earth Creationist (for example) wish to throw out all manner of evidence for things on evolution because of a desire to support what they believe to be the “infalliable word of GOD”….
All L is doing is processing where the Word of God may not necessarily have the full picture on all issues—–and that is more than appropiate, in no way dissing the scriptures. Many other scholars have had the same battles and have been around for a good bit
The word of God is infallible.
Gabriel-
Wrong.
People are fallible, they chose to believe error or the word of God.
Isaiah does say that they earth is a sphere, just because a theistic evolutionist wants to say otherwise to support his theories does not make God’ Word wrong.
The bible does not say the rabbit chews its cud, its says the rabbit/hare eats that which is brought forth again…check the Hebrew. So again the bible was right. The sceptics are wrong.
Brother Lionel
,
Regarding the issue of question #1, I couldn’t help but be reminded of the reality of what others often say when it comes to “Sola Scriptura”….., if others believed that they supported either “Sola Scriptura” or “The Authority of Scripture”, the reality is that all things within would be supported/kept. But as it is, most of what the Word discusses–from Charismatic gifts (i.e. healings, tongues, etc) to women being silent in churches/having their heads covered and many other things—or, for that matter, marrying multiple wives…are often said to not apply for today. And in that action alone, any claim of holding to Scripture as the Final Word is rendered moot.
At best, how the argument goes seems to be in line with the logic used by a black man saying “I’m not racist!!!! I have no problem with white people” and yet when his son or daughter comes home with a Hispanic, they raise eyebrows…showing that it wasn’t some much of a matter of not being prejudiced as much as not being prejudiced toward other groups more noticeable.
Even if we wish to discuss the issue of “Authority of the WORD!!”, I think folks need to be real for a bit….as all are saying the same thing against one another. It humors me to no end seeing others say that others are not following the authority of scripture and yet they do so from their denominational perspective—-such as someone Reformed telling others in the Charismatic movement or something like Calvery Chapel that they’re not following the “Authority of Scripture” for their views on Arminism/Calvinism blending…
And even on the issue of “The Word”, if one really wishes to get technical, then of course one can go in the direction of which “Word” are we talking about? For it’s the case that many textual critics have often had wonderful discussions on the issue of which Cannons of Scriptue are the best one—as what’s often utilized in the Protestant version with 66 books is not what those in Catholic or Eastern Orthodox/Eastern churches ever recognized as the one that God saw as “pure”….yet we often in the Protestant Camp view differently and look to what we hold to as the standard. And of course, from there the many ecumenical councils that’ve occured for ages and that people did not go with the majority…
Go over to any of the Eastern Orthodox forums and interact for some time and it’s truly a different world, especially when it comes to other books many do not reference….especially readings such as The Biblical Apocrypha that can greatly add to one’s learning. People forget about the Historical Jewish Accounts of things found in places like I-II Maccabees , referenced in John 10:21-23 as the “Feast of Dedication”–as that’sHanukkah…
Or things such as the Book of Enoch, which was included/referenced. in the Book of Jude in our Bible, Jude 1:13-15 Jude 1 ..for it was quoted as a prophetic text in the New Testament, alongside having a probable reference in 1 Peter 3:19 to Enoch 6-36, especially verses 21-6 and 2 Enoch 7:1-5). For the book was referenced by many of the early Church Fathers, and is also quoted as Scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas.Most churches today, however, do not reference it—though other circles will do so. In example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church to this day regards it to be canonical— as did many of the Early Church Fathers such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen of Alexandria, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian, based on its quotation in Jude.
And on the issue of Eastern Christianity, the main churches for reference:
–2 Assyrian Church of the East
—3 Oriental Orthodox Churches ( Syriac Orthodox Church , Coptic Orthodox Church, Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church , etc )
–4 Eastern Orthodox Churches
—5 Eastern Catholic Churches
And all of them saying “We should stand on the Authority of Scripture”…
But even in the Protestant Movement, it’s amazing to see the claim of “authority of scripture” when in reality what’s often used for interpretation is not merely scripture—but Councils, Creeds and other traditions in all groups that the scriptures are viewed in. Of course, Evangelicals believe that the canonicity of scripture was validated through a formal group of Christian leaders. Yet, we must be careful how far to extend creedal Christianity, lest we commit the sin of the Catholic Church (i.e. Bible PLUS Tradition = Authority). There are many competing “Creeds” and “Confessions” amongst all of the historic sects and branches of Christianity. For those new to the study of historical Christianity, go to, http://64.33.81.65/index.htm — You’ll notice there are many more than the eclectic link below), which indicates to me that our reliance on them may not be much surer than our reliance on a diligent personal study of the Word.
Hutch,
Saying “wrong” does not establish or show such…
Again, no one denies people are falliable…….but what has not been shown is where the Word of God is without error..for as it is, it is quoted continously (circularly) that it is without error/that settles it and yet nothing of the sort has been offered.
Has nothing to do with because a Theistic Evolutionist saying so===as there are countless others in all camps beyond Theistic Evolution—noting the same thing…and as it is, its all on the the reality of how the eartth was defined differing ways in the Word and that nowhere is it the case that those in the era in which the Word was written saw the planet as in the shape of a circle across the board. To say such would be akin to making the writers of that era say what it is we wish them to say rather than seeing what they meant.
Where in the Hebrew does it say that the version that “Answers in Genesis” states? Even outside of that, one can go to differing translations of the Hebrew and see that it was not the same sense as how other put it…..
And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.” is not a translation that most Jewish people have a problem. Even apart from the issue of the hare, there’s also the issue of what happens in other texts describing other animals.
“Yet of those that chew the cud or have the hoof cleft you shall not eat these: the camel, the hare, and the rock badger, because they chew the cud but do not divide the hoof; they are unclean for you” Deuteronomy 14:7
“Yet of those that chew the cud or have the hoof cleft you shall not eat these: the camel, the hare, and the rock badger, because they chew the cud but do not divide the hoof; they are unclean for you” Deuteronomy 14:7
A ruminant is an animal with a chambered stomach (i.e. cows, camels, giraffes, sheep, goats, and deer are ruminants) and Leviticus says anyone may eat them. Ruminants eat, then regurgitate their food from the first stomach, chew it a second time as “cud,” and then swallow it a second time, whereupon it proceeds to a different chamber of the stomach. Now neither lagomorphs (hares and rabbits) nor rock badgers are ruminants…with many inerrantists claiming that rabbits and hares practice “refection,” in which an animal eats its own feces….but as it stands, rock badgers are neither ruminants nor practitioners of “refection.”—and Inerrantists have no explanation for why the Bible says rock badgers are ruminants. For more info, one can go here to ” Zoo Torah”
Brother Lionel,
Some wrestle with the question of “While Timothy does not use the words ‘infallible’ and ‘innerant’, isn’t that the very character and nature of God?”
And on that issue, I can agree that God is “infallible” and “inerrant”. But I think it’s problematic to ascribe divinity to the text itself. Humankind is also “God-breathed”, but no one makes the claim that it is infallible. I affirm that “men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1.21), but it is still the human speaking, through the lens of their culture, presuppositions, belief system, etc. It’s much more messy, granted, then just claiming infallibility and direct transmission (such as Muslims claim regarding the Qur’an and Mormons claim regarding the Book of Mormon), but I’m convinced that it’s more faithful to the claims of scripture itself – and more revelatory of the God who is relationally and collaboratively involved with [his] followers
Jesus said (quoting the Torah) that “man shall not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God”. Note: proceeds not proceeded. It implies a daily, ever-growing, relational method of communion between humans and the divine.
Christian history is full of other “sources” being regarded as means by which God speaks. I personally like the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, which posits that Scripture, Tradition, Reason and Experience are the four sources of authority for the Christian
Concerning categories in the Bible, consider the difference between a novel that communicates deep truth (um, how about Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse-Five or Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings) and, say, the Magna Carta.
If you confuse your genres and regard the Lord of the Rings as if it were a legal code to be followed, then not only are you coming up with some pretty confusing “laws”, but you’re missing the big picture, the broader point, and the author’s intention.
So it is with the Bible: I’m not calling the Bible a work of fiction, but overall, on the grand scale, it has more in common with a narrative than with a legal document. The grand purpose is not to define a list of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, but to sweep one up in a story – a grand, cosmic drama of creation, election and redemption.
On the issue of things Jesus did with the scriptures…
Personally, though it is recorded that Jesus did/saw many amazing things, the scriptures make clear that by no means was it the case that Scripture was exhaustive on it—and most likely, it wasn’t as if it was simply more of the same of what He already did. But one must wonder how wild the life of Christ was in regards to the areas where scripture is silent. But God is still amazing…and on many things, there’s nothing wrong with saying “I don’t know…” and being open.
Too many things where it’s clear that I don’t need to even concern myself with trying to have it all in “formula”/”figured out.” As David said:
Brian Mclaren said it best elsewhere—as seen in this exchange on one of the issues withing his books/thoughts:
In many ways I feel where he’s coming from…as it’s not that I “don’t believe in absolute truth”, so much that I don’t believe I have absolute *access* to absolute truth. And the historical point of view of what people in the past have believed really puts that into perspective. The same thing happens with many in Fundamentalist circles when it comes to the subject of Evolution (i.e Evolutionary Creationism, Theistic Evolution, etc)–as many AUTOMATICALLY believe that any supporting the theories…or, for that matter, accepting scientific evidence that seems to support evolutionary thought, must automatically be opposed to the Genesis Account of God creating all. Though the reality is that there is much info/evidence for evolution (IMHO) and believing such does not mean that one doesn’t believe in the Scriptures….but rather that they simply feel that the Genesis account was explaninging things to people in their specific culture in terms they’d understand…and not all factors/info were exhaustive.
People still trip…but then again, the same thing happened with Galieo when the church in his time CONDEMEND him for daring to believe that their interpretation of scriputre was wrong—for in their minds, they felt that the universe revolved around the earth based on their interpretation of Psalms on the earth not being moved. And when Galieo challenged them to have a differing interpretation, they said he was a herectic……with it being in their minds justified because they read the scriptures/wanted to have accuracy. But their intentions did not make their actions any more valid—-especially when GaLieo showed through extra-biblical sources/info like science that the Earth revolved around other beings.