An Open Future And Prayer
Apr 13
Growing up as a child, I would often hear “prayer changes things” or “pray until something happens”. The soul of black folks is a praying soul. These same people may not be living in a way that was consistent with Christian Ethics at all time, but prayer was as fundamental as breathing. I guess for my grandma who had struggle and unrest ever before her fragile heart prayer was her only hope. It is funny that when you have nothing else, no insurance plan, no savings account, no one to turn to for help that prayer becomes the one rock of hope. Anyway….
As I began to embrace Reformed Theology or really Neo-Calvinism, my theory/philosophy on prayer began to change and with the introduction to Pink via his work “The Sovereignty of God” I quickly ditched my life-long position on prayer and exchanged it for the idea of complete sovereignty. To me this meant that God has already decided the future, thus prayer was a way to attain the heart of God, not get God to move on my behalf.
So over the last 5 years or so this is what I have believed. I believed that I am to accept the fate that was before me because God is Sovereign and that Sovereignty had already worked out an eternal plan for me and my condition. So I was taught to pray “your will not my will”. Much like the cry of our Master at Gethsemane and the internal-eternal struggle of His Soul as it prepared to be crushed by His Father.
As of late my heart and mind has changed and I now believe the exact opposite and have embraced the theology of my grandma on this matter. I now believe that prayer can actually change the future, that future is not set in stone and that I do not have to always accept the hand dealt to me. I now believe that my loving Father who hears my prayer can change the circumstances and that this actually illuminates His sovereignty and care for His children not rob them of it.
Now that does not mean that God will always or even often do what we ask of Him. Much like any other wise Father (though Ominscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent….) He knows whats good and He instructs/disciplines (I take this to mean mold not punish) us for our good and the good of His will. But it also goes against what I have recently believed to be true.
I no longer believe that God has set things in motion, spinned them and now sits back wanting us to get on board with His plan. I believe that He has really given us some free will (much more than what I previously believed) and that this free will shapes and molds the future and the outcome. In other words I don’t believe that God directs every present or future event. Though I believe He is in complete control of such events. And can do with those events anything He wills; however, I no longer believe that every single event that occurs is directly a result of God’s hand. Again this has nothing to do with sovereignty as for me sovereignty means complete control, God does lose control but God by His own will has allowed the decisions of His creation to shape the future.
This leads me to prayer. I also believe God has given us the power to help shape the future by prayer. We can appeal to our God about certain circumstances and He can move to change them and we can ignore God and attempt to do it ourselves and there will also be a certain outcome. For example the little girl who was raped for 15 years by her father is not a direct hand of God. Now typically she will get one of two answers. And I don’t mean to caricature anyone here. First we can turn to her and say that was God’s will for her life and He is using it for His own glory. Or we can say, the hands of an evil man has done this and God never intended that this ever happen to any human being but God can use this for His glory, but the choice is yours. The first seems to put God in the direct path of evil the second holds man 100% responsible for the condition of the young woman.
I remember the bridge collapsing in Minnesota and this was the first time I had heard of Greg Boyd but from that point forward I listened to him, from a distance, but I did listen none the less. And for the first time I disagreed with my theological hero Piper. And for the first time, I started to think on my own (in Christianity anyway). The failure of human beings who did not properly inspect and who wanted to save a few dollars caused the death of those human beings not God’s sovereign will. Much like a person who overdoses on heroin. Their own decision not God’s sovereign hand caused their death.
So again back to prayer. I believe the future to be open and prayer a real tool to change such a future. I believe our God is active and involved in our daily lives not setting all things in motion from eternity and we “get in where we fit in”. Jesus many times says that it was because someones faith or the lack there of that changed their conditions or caused such circumstances. Throughout the Old Testament we see prayer moving the hand or stopping the hand of God (this doesn’t mean that God is some genie or puppet but that He moves on our behalf like a loving involved Father). Again this isn’t some hocus pocus I can use God to get my own way, but that if we pray according to His will (not His future decisions) that He will move according to our dependency and trust in Him (coupled with our obedience also).
Just some thoughts.
Amen.
The soul of those in need is a praying soul! Prayer either changes things or it does not and therefore there is no need to pray. Jesus said we have not because we ask not. We miss out if we do not ask, ask seek, knock. I remember when Stacy and I were so desperately poor that we did not know how we were going to make it! We prayed fervently and often and we expected God to provide for us day by day, we saw amazing things happen as He took care of us as His little children. We used to keep a prayer journal and we would go back every few months and see what God had done in answer to our prayers, providing food or funds to fix a broken down clunker of a car, He sent us money in the mail, resources would miraculously appear from anonymous sources etc. It was an exciting time. He also used to send us people we called angels unawares. When we were first married and God was providing for us like that, we would have people ask us to stay with us overnight or to feed them and we would just invite them in and give them food we could not afford to give away and we would let them sleep on our couch (we used to live in a one room apartment/not a one bedroom apartment, yes I said a one room apartment) we did not worry about our safety and they would just love on from us the next day, we would feed them and minsiter to them and then we would pray and BANG!-We would be amazed again as God would provide for what we gave away and even more!
What in the world has happened to me?
Have I forgotten how needy I am?
Correction: they would just move on from us.
I moved from child-like faith/dependency to over-inflated intellecutalism. I am not saying others did this nor that one position drives one to either I am just saying for me once I fully embraced the Sovereignty position I became a fatalist which I believe to be synonymous with the current teaching on sovereignty.
I agree and the same thing ahppened to me.
Lionel,
Glad to see that you are still breaking forth from many errant church traditions that you were previously so dogmatic on. Keep on seeking to be filled with all spiritual understanding and wisdom, being fully equipped and fruitful in everything to be pleasing in God’s sight. I know your journey for God’s truth has been very humbling just as it has been for me. Praise God for His patience and mercy on us all!
Jon,
Thanks and glad to see you commenting. You still a heretic? Just kidding
Lionel,
What do you think: “responsibility to make Spirit guided choices” rather than “free will”?
To my simple mind “free will” smacks of ME-ism. Just thinking.
Aussie J,
I don’t know to be honest Sir. When I say free will, I mean we have been given the personal responsibility to make God centered decisions. If we don’t make them it is not because God had predestined it, it was because based off of our own will (which is a sovereign choice of God) we made such a decision.
So for example when a volcano erupts, it is not because God “willed” the volcano to errupt. It errupted because of the elements it possesed caused its erruption. Those elements are now there because of the fall I believe. Much like other natural disasters. Now I do believe that God can and may sometimes cause natural disasters but we can’t attribute them all to God they happen by the act of natural phenomenon.
When a man rapes a mutilates a young child it is because of the evil stored in his heart, not because God predestined it.
Sometimes our faith hinders or enable God to move on our behalf, unless Jesus is just using empty words when He tells His disciples it was because of their lack of faith or when He tells the woman with the issue of blood that it was her faith, or when He tells the Centurion it was because of his faith or when He tells Israel “I wished to gather you but you would not have it”.
Again I am not saying that God does not overpower such wills in some matters. Much like when Abraham and Sarah were protected, or maybe even the hardening of Pharoah’s heart or the choosing of Jacob over Esau. But other times I see God moving and changing His mind on something He had made His mind up about and this due to the intecessory of others.
Just my thoughts again.
Would you call that a major theological shift? Something like that happened to me 2-3 years ago when I rejected the major tenets of classical calvinism. Honestly, I think in certain circumstances Open Theism which Greg Boyd advocates makes more sense when discussing the relationship between God and the future and the free will of contingent agents.
CJ,
A HUGEEEEE shift
This was a great post, and I think many of us are in the midst of that shift or something like it. I’ve been participating on this blog for about a year and a half and the growth and change amongst those who dialogue is evident and encouraging. I started to make this very shift after I wrote a blog on prayer and your response to that post changed my life. And I couldn’t help but notice that after that shift in my own pompous thinking about prayer did I really start to see some change in my life and answers to prayer (including our latest miracle
)
So with that said, great job on the post and to all the commenters out there keep growing and challenging the status quo and watch how amazed we will become at the work of God’s mighty hand on our own hearts and in our lives period.
@ Javetta,
Thank you and yes what a big head miracle they will be
I disagree. LOL!
With the big head or the post ugly dude?
Yeah, I’ve thought about this plenty. Of course, right now I just try to pray as much as possible and I do approach him as if things can be changed, although I do lean the other way, interestingly enough. I just try to pray things that I believe are in accordance with his will, from what I know of him in the scriptures. This is one of the things that I have to look at more as well as the question about how much orthodoxy is necessary to be saved? It’s amazing you said both these things in one blog, because they are two of the things I think about most. I believe that running through a packet for three minutes with someone, never discussing their personal sin, and never discussing that they must have a willingness to forsake their old life, because, through the spirit, they have no seen Christ and want to follow him, instead…. can be dangerous. Especially when 75% of America has made a decision at some point to accept Jesus and yet, only about 2% of those believe the fundamental truths of Christianity, such as the trinity, and the authority of scripture, that the devil is real, and that Jesus lived a perfect life. With our deceitful heart, it would be easy to pray because they assure that if you do, you will go to heaven. They are also asked to look within THEMSELF to be sincere, while the scripture seems to suggest that we are incapable of such a pure act without intervention from Christ. And a lot of these people go on to pray a prayer but deep down still believe “i’m really not that bad,” ” i’m basically a good person” and that God is there to serve them. So in that case, I think that a lot of false converts are made. However, must we read the entire Bible to someone? To tell you the truth, I think these are the wrong questions. I’ve come to realize that there are so many things in Christianity that aren’t defined and vary from person to person. What’s right for one person may be wrong for another. For instance, one person may be able to handle being at a bar, but not drinking–while another may be too early in their walk to do so….and if they did, would be putting themselves in harms way with unnecessary temptation. Some may be compelled by God to give 10% while someone else may sell everything they have. I think that we need to rely on the Spirit to skirt the line and be guided. I think of these matters like I’m walking on a narrow path and to the left and right are cliffs… The only way to navigate that path with precision and not fall too far to the left or right is by seeking Guidance in an ongoing relationship with Christ. He is the one saving these folks, so he will direct our paths so that they see his truths through us. For some, it may be 5 minutes, for others it may be 5 long years.
The only way we can know how much was “enough” is when we see that glow in their eyes and it just “hits” them. Tears are always a good sign. So the question is…. “have they changed? Is the spirit working? are they beginning to understand the things they once did not? They are blind, but do they now see?”
As far as prayer is concerned. Interesting thoughts, however, how far do we take this? I know it is difficult to imagine prayer if we can’t change the outcome. I am struggling with that myself right now, and am not set in stone either way, although I lean towards the other option, to what you suggest. I would really like to determine that I can change the future, because then my prayer life would be more valuable, it would seem. But I must be careful. I don’t want to choose something, because I don’t like it the way it is. Things are the way the are and aren’t always explained. We owe him our life. It’s about Lordship. I’ll follow him and head his words no matter what they are, because I owe him that for what he did for me, but also because I want truth, not compromise or comfort ability. And I’m certainly not suggesting that you are prone to this things… they are just the things I consider when debating this with myself.
If we can change the outcome, it begs these questions…
God is a God of extremes… heaven hell, love hate, hot or cold, not lukewarm, etc.
It comes down to salvation, mostly. Do we have the ability to change the outcome of who is saved or Gods plan for humanity? Or is it set in stone?
If we are able to pray and change things, that means that we are able to pray and affect whether or not someone is saved. If we pray enough or enough people pray, God will intervene on our behalf. That sort-of reverses the roles. Now maybe you didn’t intend us to have this much power through prayer, but that’s how far we have to take it. And if it is true, we should all be praying literally 24/7. So now humanity is somewhat dependent on what we do, and not fully dependent on what God does. Also, God is put in a position of serving us and our requests instead of us serving him. If he does indeed work on our behalf at our request, then he sometimes serves us. I feel the Bible makes it clear that he does not need us for anything. But we are so finite and don’t even have a clue as to the full intricacies of the matter and won’t until we are in heaven, perhaps. God is not confined to time. He lives in the past present and future the same. So, with that in mind, since he doesnt have to wait for us to pray that someone is saved, for instance…. What if they are elected before time, because he knew that Christians were going to pray on behalf of this person? If that’s the case, we would both be correct. It would be set in stone and could not change. If God knows whats going to happen or has seen whats going to happen, which he has… then it is correct and cannot be changed. But maybe some of those things happened because of what he knew we would do. I don’t think I really agree with this either, its just a “what if” and I could see where someone was coming from if they phrased it this way.
However, if how many people are saved is somewhat dependent on how much I pray, or whether or not I wake up on time to evangelize…. God help us all. God help us all. If humanity is partially dependent on us and our will — which is exactly where we arrive if your belief is accurate — humanity is in trouble. If I have control over the salvation of men… People are straight up going to die. Because I rarely live up to my full potential. I am still flawed. It’s like saying “God wanted this person to be saved, but you didn’t talk to them or didnt pray for them.” And now we’re limiting God’s power to see that he wants something, but doesn’t have the power to make it happen without us. I know this is not the extreme that you are taking it to, but understand, that is exactly what we are left with, if that is the route we choose. Romans 9 :19 “who can resist the will of God?” Proverbs 21:30 – there is no wisdom, nor understanding, nor council against the Lord. Pretty much that seems to mean that God can’t want something and us not want it or specifically God cant want someone to be saved and it not happen, because we dont want it (which we wouldnt if we knew we could pray or evangelize them into salvation, but didnt.) Because there is nothing we can do against him.
I think we come to a better understanding when we look at the specifics of Gods will such as his prescriptive and decretive will. or His secret plans vs revealed, etc. However, I do not believe there can be any differences between Gods will as desiring or decreeing. Think about it. It’s against his nature. If God desires something, that means that it is good, because God is good by nature. He has the power to do anything…. If he does what he desires, it is good. If he does not do what he desires, it is bad. It’s lack us. It’s lack of action where action is needed, because action is right and good. Now God’s like us… limited and affected. God does whatever he desires, because it is good. If an action is good, lack of doing it must be evil. God is not evil. Meaning if I have the means to help someone who is in desperate need of it and I know that it is right and good, lack of action would be bad. Lack of action is the BIGGEST flaw you can see we still have from a distance. It is Christianitys Achilles heal, but thank God it is not dependent on our action or lack thereof, but the fate of the world solely rests on God who is just, who does have the means, and who does take action. Even if we can affect his plans, we will always fall short and never do ENOUGH.
When Josephs brothers sold him into slavery… Joseph didn’t say God used it for good, like God is limited and must wait for us to act, then spin his wheels and try to fix our actions… again, he doesnt wait for us, or his plans would fail over and over again. God said that they “meant it for evil” but he meant it for “good.” God makes us so intricately that all he has to do is place us in a certain place at a certain time and because we are so complicated and proned to certain choices — like paper or plastic? And if he just places us somewhere, or something, he can start a domino affect. We are so beautifully designed that all he has to do is stick us somewhere and he knows how we will react, and has long foreplanned, how it will be used in accordence with his will, whether for good or bad. So yes!!!! of course we have choices. I would be a fool to say we didn’t. we obviously do. But God knows our limits and knows what he must do to compel us, through our own choice, to act in accordance with his will. For instance, if God wants me somewhere he will get me there, but i will make the choices, because God will do what is necessary to compell me to that choice. He knows me better than me…. He knows if he does this much…. i might not choose to do what he wants me to….. so he does more…. he does as much influence as needed to get me to choose what he wants me to do. For instance… maybe he wants me to speak to a homeless person about Christ…. And he knows how he has built me and how my emotions will respond to the situation. That if I pass him by and he is bundled up and looks warm, although he is homeless, I will only feel bad, but not bad enough to stop and help him. But he wants me to help him. So I will help him. He will do what is necessary, based on the intricacy of how he has programmed me, to convict my emotion in such a way that he knows I WILL make the choice to help him. If he can’t do this, it’s like saying that he doesnt have the power to. Like, I know this is what makes grant tick, but “oh dangit…. i didnt get him to tick enough…. maybe next time.” No! of course not, he will do whatever is necessary. So as I pass him, maybe it begins to rain…. and now i see he is cold, but maybe i am still cold hearted…. but he knows that if he does one more thing, my conscience will convict me too much and I WILL ACTIVELY MAKE MY OWN DECISION TO STOP AND HELP HIM, but based one what God did. So God sends a strong wind, and the man drops his noodle soup or something so now he has no food…. and i cant stand anymore, I stop to help the man, as God willed.
your grandma sounds great, but we are to base how we act on Gods word, not what seems “like a better idea,” or what our grandma suggested, versus Gods word. And personally, stepping back and looking at Gods word in perspective I think his message to us is GRACE, dependent on him alone, not of ourselves. You must follow your theories all the way to their end and in doing so I believe you end up with a limited God, that serves us, depends on us, and does not always do what is right. If you go with the latter, I believe it lines up more accurately with scripture and Gods message that we are weak and pitiful and dependent solely on him….If we determine through our actions or lack thereof, who is saved…. then we could take as far as to evangelize someone who we like, versus who we dont like, etc…. now we elect who is saved, partially if not fully, and God depends on that. You may think that I am being “extreme” and talking about things which you did not even suggest or agree with, but I am logically following this theory to its end. There is no in-between here.
just my thoughts… this is a non essential issue…. so i know you’re my brother in Christ and I enjoyed reading your blog and see God using you.
let me know what u think.
Grant
oh as far as “ask and you shall receive,” obviously we don’t always receive if we ask for a corvette or what not….. why not? because we dont pray in accordance with his will. he doesnt respond to vain requests. why are they vain? because they dont line up with the Bible, because they don’t line up with his will. if we ask with pure intentions…. pure being based off what is considered pure in the Bible, then we will receive!!!! “ask” doesnt mean simply ask. it means ask, based off of the many standards set before us in his word. if you deny this, it really wouldnt make any sense….. because obviously there is a catch, or we would receive everything we wanted. i most certainly have prayed for vain things before and NOT received them. if you say its because we dont have faith, then you are putting a further definition on “ask” just like i am doing. and considering i once believe it to be like this, i did have faith….and still didnt receive. when i say “you” im directing this to anyone who is reading.
to the first comment….
so what is the point you ask? well your wrong to say theres no point to prayer or evangelism ( which are one in the same in this situation) if we cant change the outcome… The point is to not waste your life. To choose to be a part of something and have God use you to do his will, instead of someone else….bc you best believe he will get it done with or without you. He doesnt need anyone, he is self sufficient, and in no way dependent on us. this is the message of the Bible. the point is that he has saved us and we owe our life to him and he has marked us with his Spirit to guide us to carry out his will (EZ 36)…. the point is that because he gave us life when we faced certain death, we LOVE HIM ETERNALLY, AND WANT NOTHING MORE BUT TO PLEASE HIM, AND WE TRUST HIM EVEN THOUGH WE DONT ALWAYS UNDERSTAND, SO WE OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. we dont ask why, and understand that everything doesnt have to be logically explained in terms we can understand…. that is FAITH. there will always be a time when we ask “what is the point of this?” but we must be obedient, because we don’t always see what he is doing. for instance, if someone says “God i dont understand why I have to stop smoking cigarettes…. it doesnt affect my love for you.” and u may say this is a ridiculous example, but it a diff thing for everyone, we have all been at that place but are called to obey anyway. obv God has good reasons. maybe he convicted you to quit so you could live a few years longer and carry out his will in those years, or because he needed you to be clean and blameless for a person he would put in your life years later, etc. Its the same with evangelism and prayer. We don’t always know what he is up to. BUT THE POINT OF IT IS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP. I thrive off of seeing him at work, and just because i dont believe i can affect the outcome, it does not mean that i don’t relentlessly pray or pursue others in presenting the gospel to them. This is my life. I do it because I am obsessed and addicted. I do it because I love him and owe him my life and this is what he tells me to do with my life. I do it because he rewards it. I do it because if I don’t do what he says, I become distant from him and have no inspiration to continue. I do it because the more i do, the more i get to be a part of the only thing that matters and the more he makes that clear to me and rewards my obedience by seeing myself be used in his plan and knowing that i am serving the God of the universe through my actions.
is that not enough? must we always have a “logical” reason that makes sense to us? I hope not. because there was a time where the Lordship of Christ didn’t make sense to us, unless you were magically born into this world as a Christian…. if we follow this logic to its end, we would have never been saved.
just playing devils advocate, hoping to get us to use our heads a little.
love ya fam
on the centurian and israel…
yes, they resisted….but my logic remains in tact…. they very well may have chose not to partake in what God willed….but im willing to bet he found another way to get it done.
whether or not the centurion had faith, if God wanted the main healed he would be. the centurion had faith so he was healed. if he didnt have faith, perhaps someone else would have and he still would have been healed. pretty sure God still ends up “gathering” israel. nothing was thwarted. some chose not to partake in Gods plan and further their relationship with him, so he will use someone else….others chose to partake.
Grant,
I think you may have read something into what I said. In relation to salvation I am a Monergist. Again I think we are speaking of two mutually exclusive issues here. For example God “can” predestine some events and allow human freedom in others (The Ark and Ninivah) God can harden Pahroah’s heart but then allow His mind to be changed by Moses’ intercession.
Jesus told the disciples when they asked why couldn’t we cast out the demons that it was because of their “little faith”. To argue that “if God really wanted it” seems to redefine the very scriptures you are upholding. Either God’s mind was changed or it wasn’t, either it was their lack of faith or it wasn’t, to make this in between category seems to not be faithful to the text in front us Grant.
Also I don’t believe in propsperity type of prayers and I agree with your usage of “not praying in God’s will” the problem is that can work both ways. We can pray for a mansion or we can fail to pray for our sick neighbor both could not praying in God’s will by the definition. Jesus often times tells people “it was your faith that healed you”, you could argue that it was His will to heal them but I could argue that if they had no faith they wouldn’t be healed. There are other events. For example Paul instructs the Thessalonians to pray for an open door for evangelism which had been blocked by Satan. Paul didn’t believe it was God’s will for the door to be closed so He asked the church to pray for them.
So I would say I probably disagree but I do understand your contention but it may not be good to discuss in extremes on some issue. Because as I read the scriptures I see God preordaining and I see God being open, neither hinders what I am saying.