Top Ten Reasons Why The Sermon Should Remain Central To The Meeting
Mar 06
Letterman Style for fans of late night…..
10. What would happen to the Homily professors?
9. We wouldn’t be able to pick on Joel Olsteen
8. Women could actually participate more when the Church meets
7. What the heck are we going to do with all the pulpits
6. The worship team would have to prepare longer
5. People will be upset because they would actually have to study their bibles instead of paying someone else to do it
4. People will be bored with an extra 45 min to an hour of Worship Service time (15 minutes if you go to Lakewood)
3. Heresy is inevitable if the sermon was removed
2. The Pastor will no longer be edified by his bible study and sermon prep
and the number one reason………
1. What in the world would we pay Senior Pastors for?
Lionel,
So true! If what you are saying wasn’t so realistic it would be hilarious.
11. What would we write about?
-Alan
I agree Mr. John
12. Then what would I do with all my free time?
13. Pastors would have no means of doing a four part series on “Why the Church Service is not central to the Church”… (I swear I saw this recently…) Think about it, if we didn’t have an official meeting with a professional speaker, we’d have no way of learning that we shouldn’t be focused on official meetings with professional speakers… If we didn’t have cutting-edge sermons like these to listen to on a weekly basis, then we might actually forget that we don’t need cutting-edge sermons every week… (the logic is so solid, it makes me drool a little…)
14. The unemployment rate is too high to have anymore unskilled workers looking for jobs.
15. I would never be able to get through Leviticus, which I read during sermon time
oooh… I think #14 maybe hits a little too close to home for a lot of folks… that’s a zinger Hutch…
Seriously, I know many, many people who have determined from studying Scripture that the sermon should not be central and that one man (besides Jesus Christ) should not be central. But, these people have been to Bible School and Seminary and know of no other way to support their family that to be paid by the church. And, if the church pays them, then the church expects them to do certain things, such as preach sermons. I feel for these people, because they feel like they are forced to do something that they don’t think is healthy for the church.
-Alan
Alan,
I do poke fun, however, I do understand that many think this is the best way, and sometimes that may be true. Now I don’t know about the pay part, but the sermon part, many don’t get paid to do it but still feel it is vital to the growth of the church, I have an opinon about that, but this was to be taken tongue in cheek (just in case someone read this and was offended). I think 99% of the people are doing the best they can to see Christ’s body grow and they are my brothers and sisters and I love them.
Lionel,
Good to know that you’re keeping guys like me relevant.
LOL @ T.C.R
Ya know, it’s weird… This comment thread has wound up zeroing in on something for me, namely, a major source of frustration I have with this whole issue… Specifically when Alan said, “But, these people have been to Bible School and Seminary and know of no other way to support their family that to be paid by the church“, it really just clicked in my mind. Like you guys, I also know quite a few people who sincerely want to spread the gospel, and honestly want to serve God, but are coming from a seminary background, and even though they feel somewhat conflicted about things like the importance of sermons and such, they feel like their hands are basically tied, so they just have to make do the best they can and work within the “system”…
But this right here is where it takes a very personal turn for me, because I myself came graduated High School and proceeded to go on a two-year mission trip. I came back and started school, but didn’t finish. The only thing I could really put on a resume was “missions” stuff, which I had walked away from. I have wrestled for years with feeling like I have no real way of providing for my family Outside of some position within a religious institution of one form or another. But yet, God has provided for us, in ways that I never could have anticipated. This I suppose is why I get so upset when I hear these “conflicted” pastor types talk about they understand that the institutional church is backwards in many ways, but they feel like they have no choice but to pursue this sort of “middle ground” (if that makes sense). They’re always trying to be as “unconventional” as they can, without actually jeapordizing the existance of the clergy/laity distinction. They are constantly searching for window-dressing changes, that don’t really change anything, because ultimately they have this thought in the back of their heads that won’t go away, the thought that they cannot get any other kind of job…
Just recently in an exchange with one of these “conflicted” pastor dudes, he told me, “I am not getting rich off of anyone and I strive to teach and preach with integrity and God’s truth, and also, “There are probably some in this for the money and it grieves me to see that and yet I know of many faithful folks who serve God no matter what…”
And I’ve heard this kind of defense many, many times. The “Hey-I’m-a-pastor-I’m-not-getting-rich!” defense… I must confess I often feel like people in professional “ministry” (and also many in the “missionary” world) have learned to play the “pity-me” card pretty effectively. I remember from my own experience, that this is not something that is taught explicity, but more implicity. You learn to do it by being immersed in this weird culture of “full-time” religious people. It’s easy to see yourself as being more “hardcore” than the average once-a-week church-goer (and thus deserving of other people’s hard-earned money). It’s easy to point to the televangelists on T.V. with all their extravegance and appear pretty meager by comparison. But then it amazes me hmany of these “I’m-not-getting-rich” pastors I have known do own their own homes, (which is not a cheap or easy thing to do in this city) and overall live a pretty comfortable lifestyle. Rich? Maybe not… But to me, I can’t help but think about that joke, where some guy approaches a woman on a plane, and asks her, “Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?” She thinks about it for a bit, and then answers, “Yes, I believe I would…” Then the man asks, “Would you sleep with me for twenty dollars?” to which she retorts, “What kind of girl do you think I am!?” The man replies, “We’ve already established that, now it’s just a matter of settling on the price…”
What’s the point of this rant? Not sure at this stage, but I think it boils down to the fact that I am sick of this whole deal where we all play this game of feeling sorry for the poor chaps who went through seminary and now have no other options than to work for a church, where they will be expected to do X,Y & Z… Balogne! There are other options, you just don’t LIKE them… And that I totally understand, cuz it’s scary and uncertain and more than a little daunting. But are those the kinds of situations where faith is most important!? Talk about practice what you preach… I of course realize that most professional pastors aren’t making loads of cash, but there is more at stake than just money. Would they feel the same sense of personal achievement, if they left their paying pastoral job and delivered pizzas instead? Might they feel like a failure, and face a degree of dejection by their peers if they did? Would they be looked up to and admired by folks in the same way, if they were trying to serve in the same manner, only outside of an institution? You think people were impressed (in any worldly sense) when they saw Paul sitting on the ground, doing manual labor, sewing tents together?
I’m sure you all have considered these kinds of questions yourselves, I suppose I just needed to get some of this stuff out of my system…
I’m sure you all have considered these kinds of questions yourselves, I suppose I just needed to get some of this stuff out of my system…
oops, had a few typos in there… (my bad)
You bring up some good points. Maybe Alan can address this a little more specifically, I almost went to Seminary again, but decided against it again. The reasons are as you say. I CANT approach this thing from a job perspective, my heart won’t let me, I see something wrong with “pursuing” a “career” in ministry as a noble job. But I believe the scriptures are clear about that while others do not.
Daniel,
(First, would you email me at aknox@sebts.edu? Thanks!)
I agree with what you say. Many of the people that I talked about continue in their position with much heartache because of the support issue. And primarily because this would not just affect themselves, but their family (wife and children, for example) as well. Like I said before, I feel for these people because of the difficult situation that they find themselves in.
By the way, I also know several people who have “resigned” and found a secular job. They were usually not welcomed by their current church so they would have to find another group of believers to meet with.
-Alan
Lionel-
I’m thinking $90,000 a year, major medical and a BMW should suffice for me bringing the Word on Sundays and Wednesday. I’d like to be able to have you on staff as well, but I’m not sure we could get to $90k’s outta “our”…uh…ummm…I mean His flock, but we could twist soem scriptures and do some proof-texting preaching /some “stewardship messages and see if we can get them to dig a little deeper. I like this talk about mutuality, but it seems very complicated and involved and not very pragmatic, but I definately think we should go plurality of elder, you and I as the staff “pastors” can be the self appointed elders.
I don’t think God cares, either way, whether or not a sermon is predominant during church worship. Folks need to get a grip.
Seekerman,
I think otherwise
You have that right.
Putting aside the sermon controversy-christians have to be careful, when they attempt to convict other christians about certain “biblical” positions, because of personal and subjective preferences. I once attended a church that said if the Lord, on the day of rapture, caught you watching television, or wearing shorts, or jewelry-you would be left behind, and doomed to hell. Now mind you, I’m not comparing the sermon controversy, in total, with such foolishness, per se-but it’s somewhere around the corner, if we’re not careful.
Sometimes telling it like it is, ain’t telling it like it is, because of certain complexities and nuances that may need to be considered.
Seekerman,
I would challenge such a church who taught that. I could continue the discussion let me know if you would like to and why I have a problem with sermon central churches. I think we have already engaged in this discussion before. In a mature church where people have been taught to understand the scripture and hear from the Spirit the sermon can have (and has have) a crippling effect. To the fact that if a certain person is not preaching they don’t show up, or people migrate to the place where the best sermon is and also church hasn’t occured unless a certain type of homily has been shared, this undermines everything we see in the scripture about all saints participation brother. That is all I am saying. In the short-run the sermon may have benefits, but what it does is says that all people learn the same way are at the same place on this journey and even worst need the same thing at the same time. All which we know to be very untrue and usually once a person has outgrown the “sermon” at that church they go to a church whose level of education is higher (thus the Pulpit Pimp arugment about preaching).
Bruh, there’s not anything on this earth, that will ever be perfect, not even a church that is sermon oriented, or not. I once briefly attended a church while in college that relied on being led of the spirit, to where folks were so busy looking at one another, to find a “word,” to where nothing was truly ever said. And when it came time for someone to speak what the spirit supposedly had told them, or should tell them- because no one else had anything to say- and because it was their turn, what usually came out of their mouths were nothing more than churchiology filibusters. In other words, they were like dull knives that were talking loud, but saying nothing.
All I’m saying is, I’ve been entwined with many religious traditions, and been black my whole life. And what black folks need, is not “waiting on the spirit” moments, when we come together, but good sermons/teachings/lectures, that will equip and empower us through the spoken word. It’s almost cultural, but that doesn’t make it wrong in the sight of God, nor a biblical anathema. I’ve been in plenty of holiness churches where I saw the spirit provoke folks into testifying, prophesying and to singing and the like, but yet the sermon was the key tool used, in the end, to exhort, edify and pass on sound biblical teachings.
Simply put, let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water, simply because our personal preferences dictate otherwise.
And yes, you’re right, we have argued this before, throwing out scriptures left and right, and you have shown great maturity by not requiring me to throw out scriptures to prove my points, seeing as how many times, christians, in their carnality, will rely on telling other christians they disagree with, and who they think are easy touches, to throw out scriptures as a tactic to silence their opposition.
Some folks can throw out scriptures with ease more so than others, and many times it doesn’t have anything to do with spiritual slothfulness, but with certain gifts one may have over the other.
But here’s the big and obvious secret:
JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ISN’T AS ADEPT AT PUTTING OUT SCRIPTURES, WITH GREAT EASE, DOESN’T MEAN THEIR POSITION ON A BIBLICAL OR SPIRITUAL MATTER, IS WRONG. And guess what else? JUST BECAUSE A PERSON CAN FLING OUT SCRIPTURES, WITH SUCH AN EASE, TO WHERE FOLKS THINK THEY’RE FAKING IT, DOESN’T MEAN THEY RIGHT.
Satan knew enough scripture to throw at Jesus. Knowing scripture, and being able to handle it wisely, is fine and all, if you’re information is correct, and intentions are noble. However, if you’re using your skill in being able to handle scripture, so that you can beat up and bully folks who aren’t as gifted, or folks you feel are easy touches, and will get off on that- then you are a very carnal christian who may as well believe that certain folks are pre-ordained to heaven, or to hell-seeing as how no one’s conscious will be pricked by looking at your example/witness.
With that said, I’m not pointing to anyone specific. I was just lead to say what I’ve just put down. Peace.
Seekerman,
Sometimes the baby is dead and must be buried.
Sometimes folks may think the baby is dead, because they want it to be, and will fight for it’s death-because it doesn’t fit a particular agenda. This is similar to folks who claim Jesus never existed, not because they empirically believe this-but because they want to. With all that said, it’s okay to hold and express your views, just like it’s okay for someone to express and hold, the opposing view. In the end, I believe that God has given the Church, liberty on this matter. To have a sermon oriented fellowship or not, isn’t biblically etched in stone. Furthermore, many Christians have heard the gospel, and have been edified, in both forums.
I’m through with this topic…
Seekerman,
Do you go to sites where the the guys believe the sermon is central, even to the fact on where they don’t believe you have a biblical church unless exegetical sermons are preached “faithfully” and tell them they are wrong for believing that?
Lionel, I said Iwas through with this topic, but seeing as how you asked me a question, let me just reply by stating: I don’t know of a site, other than yours, that is pro sermon, or not pro sermon, that dogmatically addresses the issue as strongly as you do. In other words, regardless of where most sites fall down on, they don’t make it such a central point, to where they are obsessed with this non-essential issue. Nor do they try and put folks in bondage, or guilt, as it relates to the matter-pro or con.
LOL @ Seekerman, then my friend you don’t travel the web much.
Also, can you show me an obsession? Go through all of my post and show me an obsession. What would you deem an obsession 1 out of 10, 1 out of 20. Look at my last say 20 post and show me how many talk about sermons. Thanks. If you are going to make a claim then you are going to have to prove it right?
Rapid frequent discussions of a topic, isn’t the only barometer, from which you can judge an obsession. I can talk about liking cornbread 5 times throughout the year, on this very site, to where one can conclude that I’m possibly obsessed with eating, or discussing cornbread-seeing as how I insert the word “cornbread,” every chance I get: when it’s convenient, or when it’s not convenient. And if someone accuses me of having an obsession with cornbread, I can easily point to them that the word ‘cornbread’ was only highlighted 5 times in one year-so where’s the obsession?
I once told a member of the NOI that Farrakhan had an obsession with women’s bosoms (I’m being discretionary here), because every once in a while, in a blue moon, he would always make references to black women’s bosoms-in his analogies of what ills the black community, whether it be from exploitation from racial outsiders, or his own personal anguish (yeah he took it there, but I won’t).
Well, the NOI cat really didn’t appreciate that, and his only defense was-Farrakhan doesn’t always express such symbolism in his lectures; and that I can only point to just a few instances.
I’m like okay…
Seeker,
I am actually obsessed with ecclesiology, which is why the subtitle of this blog is “promoting New Covenant Ethics and Ecclesiology”. So I talk about ethics and ecclesiology. This will often times discuss sermons, buildings, leadership (this is where you should say I have the obsession), church history, the current state of the church, New Covenant Theology flowing out of Christian ethics and a few others to name the least.
So again my obsession is with ecclesiology and ethics from a New Covenant and Organic pespective. Many sites specialize or focus on one aspect. Some poltics, others what they label false teachers, some on great sermons preached, others with puritan thought, some focus on their seminary perspective, others on Christian books, some on Christian music, some on church planting, some on pastoral care, others on end times, some on greek text or even hebrew text, some on marriage, others on equality amongst the sexes, some on missions and others on homeschooling.
Why you choose to come here and tell me what I shouldn’t focus on is beyond me.
Lionel said:
“I am actually obsessed with ecclesiology, which is why the subtitle of this blog is “promoting New Covenant Ethics and Ecclesiology”. ”
My response:
I know you are, which is what I highlighted…
Lionel said:
“So I talk about ethics and ecclesiology. This will often times discuss sermons, buildings, leadership (this is where you should say I have the obsession),”
My response:
You can have an obsession on leadership, as well as sermons…
Lionel said:
“So again my obsession is with ecclesiology and ethics from a New Covenant and Organic pespective.”
My response:
I know that it is; but your obsession is also with the “sermon” which is what this particular blog is about, right? As a matter of fact, you’ve done several blogs on the “sermon” topic, to where you felt you had to put up a blog, making mockery of the “sermon” centered practices.
Lionel said:
” Many sites specialize or focus on one aspect.”
My response:
I realize this, and?
Lionel said:
“Some poltics, others what they label false teachers, some on great sermons preached, others with puritan thought, some focus on their seminary perspective, others on Christian books, some on Christian music, some on church planting, some on pastoral care, others on end times, some on greek text or even hebrew text, some on marriage, others on equality amongst the sexes, some on missions and others on homeschooling.”
My response:
And what’s your point?
Lionel said:
“Why you choose to come here and tell me what I shouldn’t focus on is beyond me.”
My response:
I’m not telling you what you ought not focus on, per se, but rather addressing a blog/topic of yours, with my own opinions; just like everyone else was doing…
Seeker,
If I give you the sites that talk about preaching and the sermon being central to the church meeting will you go there and tell them how wrong they are?
Can you produce those sites?
1. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/2006/1756_Why_Expositional_Preaching_is_Particularly_Glorifying_to_God/
2. http://reformationtheology.com/
3. http://www.newreformationministries.org/
4. http://pastorsteveweaver.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/expository-preaching-conference-with-steve-lawson-and-john-macarthur/
5. http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Tags.aspx?ID=22
6. http://fide-o.blogspot.com/2008/05/importance-of-preaching.html
7. http://biblicalpreaching.net/
Would you like for me to continue?
You can post more up, if you like. Oh, and by the way, I do agree with these folks on the benefits of preaching sermons (not necessarily expository preaching), however, unlike you, I don’t see them obsessing over those folks who don’t follow their practice.
Seeker,
They do obsess they actually call the opposite style of “their” preaching bad preaching, they call churches that decide not to preach the word biblically unfaithful. So either you didn’t read the post or you are blowing smoke either way, they are so obsessed with the sermon that many held a SERMON CONFERENCE. If that ain’t obsession I don’t know what is. You get men (please note that only men can do this) from all over the United States to talk about the importance of preaching. Are you seriously saying that isn’t an obsession when 2 of my last 20 posts have something to do with not preaching?
Lionel, you have as one of your obsessions, the notion of the sermon. It may not be your only obsession, but is an obsession with you, nonetheless…