What’s With Paul And Women: Unlocking the Cultural Background of 1 Timothy 2
Feb 14
Jon Zens has decided to write a book addressing the contervesial women and the church issue that has been argued greatly but especially recently. I had the privellage of reading some earlier manuscript work and can’t wait to see the published version of it. No matter where you fall on the issue, I think it should be read, for us who have struggled with the issue to the point of embracing it but wanted some conservative evangelical work on the issue here it is. I can’t wait to see what Jon has to say and what others have to say to it. Should be fun Here is a direct link to purchase it for preorder
Lionel,
It would seem that preaching or pastoring for a fee would be similar to charging for your teachings through a book. Isn’t the material in his book meant to edify and give understanding to the body? So why must there be a fee? Espescially in this day in age when you can post all of it online for everyone to read for free. But I guess that may defeat his purpose in writing the book in the first place. It still has been amazing to me to think of all the “Christian” books that I have paid for (wasted money for) through the years versus the ones that I have found free over the internet. The ones that have been most helpful and less distorted are the sources of information that were given away free of charge. For surely, freely have we received from Christ so freely we should give to others what Christ has purposed in us to give to the body for edification.
You can take it up with Jon about why. I know a few guys (Jon) included who do not make money on the book. For example the purchased books covers the cost of printing them and what he gives away for free, but you should email him and ask him about he. He usually responds pretty swiftly.
He has about 5 or 6 free articles on his site covering the issue he chose to publish this one, but I am sure he would share it with you for free if you didn’t have the resources and really wanted to read what he had to share.
And no I don’t believe that writing a book and pastoring for a fee is similar. Not even close, a book is extracurricular but if you wanted him to speak and share with you, he would do it for free, he has for me just last labor day.
Lionel,
You stated:
“Not even close, a book is extracurricular…”
My response:
How is teaching through a book to be considered different than from teaching face to face as a relates to being paid for it? Did Paul charge for the books (letters) that he wrote? Isn’t Paul’s material considered more valuable than Jon’s?
Yes Jon, Paul’s letters (which would have been 2 pages in our font) was not charged for, but neither were they extracurricular, Paul saw problems and decided to write or Paul heard of problems and decided to write or people wrote Paul and he responded.
Again Jon has 100’s of free articles, and again I am pretty sure he would send you this book for free, but if a person can afford to buy it to help him further his work and to cover publishing cost (don’t forget many people don’t like reading on the internet while others like me perfer books, I collect like people collect other stuff). So if you can’t afford it then email him and I am pretty sure he can send you one for free. If he can’t I will buy it for you.
But I am pretty sure you can pay $11 and you just want to start a fruitless discussion about this. One I am not willing to engage in. I believe preaching the good news and writing a book about a conterversial issue are two wholly different works. Much like if a Christian writer decided to write something like C.S Lewis or John Bunyan (the Shack would fall in this category).
Again it costs to publish, but I am sure he would send you the pdf for free if not a published book for free, just email him. Also you can ask him why he decided to charge. I didn’t write it so I don’t know.
Lionel,
You stated:
“But I am pretty sure you can pay $11 and you just want to start a fruitless discussion about this.”
My response:
It just seems so hypocritical that you have recently been talking so negatively on preachers and teachers who charge for their labor for Christ but yet you constantly promote books to buy from preachers and teachers who do that very thing as well (charge for their labor for Christ). I do understand that some people would prefer a hard copy book which may have to come at a cost. However, one option that I think would be more consistent with what you claim should be done in the Body would be to simply offer it online for free and charge (if necessary) for those who would rather have a hard copy of it.
BTW My initial comment was to strike conversation on charging or not for books that were written (hopefully) to edify the Body. I’ve noticed over the months that I have been blogging on your site that you seem to get very defensive anytime I challenge any of your views.
Jon,
99.9% of the time you challenge my views on eternal damanation when the post don’t even warrant such a discussion.
Next I explained the difference. You didn’t like the difference, I then said that you can contact Jon about why he is charging. As it relates to pastors charging to proclaim the “good news” and charging to “care for people” (shepherding is defined by caring) that seems to be inconsistent with the scripture.
So writing a book is not a need it is a want usually about information and things that cost. Lets try this. For any writer to write a book with sources, it cost them money to buy the sources. You usually read 6 to 7 books (that you have to purchase at about $15 per book) to write a work that has some type of scholarly references. To sale a book (which usually costs $7-8$ in publishing cost) for $11 isn’t much of a profit margin, he is probably doing it at cost.
However, again caring for people is an obligation and supernatural gift, writing a book is an opinion about a specific subject. The two can’t even come close to being equated.
Finally your comments always sound antagonisit and very rarely do you come from a dialouge. Listen to this sentence:
“But I guess that may defeat his purpose in writing the book in the first place.”
Does that sound like someone wanting to engage in a dilaogue? You don’t know Jon, you don’t know why he writes or if he has lost money on publishing this work. You just made a huge assumption that somehow he was writing the book for profit.
Finally I disagree with pastors who charge to care for others based off of scripture. I don’t judge their motives, many don’t make enough to do well. I disagree with it because I think the bible tells us something differently, I have never judged the motives, other than giving a general warning which is anyone who wouldn’t do it for free isn’t doing it for God. Jon (as I know him personally) would give you a book for free brother but if you can pay to cover his costs (just like I would support a traveling speaker for the cost it took him to come speak to us) then do it. If you can’t then as I said I am sure you can get it for free.
Yes, I will offer a brief response. Jon Paden does not know me or my circumstances, thus most of what he says is based on ignorance of the details in my situation. The points Lionel made were well-taken and true — and that is so because he knows me. The truth is, the essence of what is in What’s With Paul & Women? has been on the Searching Together website since 2007, and it is still there.
Jon P:
I understand your initial concern. I once questioned why any believer would charge for a book. There are some “Christian” bookstores that I refuse to go into because it’s all about profit. And that’s no secret where the price gouging is evident!
In the last couple of years, I have come to know several authors personally who are by no means getting rich from their books. Jon Zens is one of those authors. There is great cost involved in printing and publishing books. The large majority of the profit is going directly to the printing and continued printing of these books.
Most importantly, it has been brought to my attention that people are simply not apt to read a “free” eBook or lengthy articles online. I was shocked by this at first, but later I realized that even I do this. I would much rather hold the book in my hand and have it on my shelf than read from my computer. I’m an avid reader… so I wouldn’t let “free” stop me from reading. But most people on average do not operate like us bookworms.
I don’t completely understand it… but people are not motivated to read a “free” book as much as they are when they have actually paid to read. Some must think, “Well, I’ve never heard of the guy… and it’s ‘free’… it must not be worth the time it takes to read it.” Who knows why people work this way. But I’m convinced that there are some authors who understand how this works.
Authors take the time to write because they desire that people read what they have written. It makes good sense that they would make an attempt to put that book into the hands of readers and increase their chances of readership. It’s those authors that have signed a contract to print X number of books in X time that I’m truly concerned about. Jon Zens is not one of those authors.
Thanks, to those honest authors who are not looking to make a profit, but are only hoping their books will find an audience who is open to what the Lord has laid upon their hearts. We notice your efforts in resisting the large publishing companies that are only interested in making a buck.
David,
I would add not just Zens. Piper and a few others I know have their books available on line. But again, we have to think about editing, copyrighting, illustration costs and other fees that go into publishing. I am like you. I like to pay even when offered free and many times I have been given books for free for reviewing and have turned and purchased the book (if I liked it) for others to read because I believe the information was valuable and whats a couple of happy meals or cups of coffee when we have the opportunity to feast on good works.
As it relates to pastors, I believe it is a good thing to help pastors financially. I beleive that is PART of what 1 Timothy is saying. But we should meet the needs of any and every believer and should always be in the business of sharing with others. I am agaisnt salaried guys who dictate how much they will get paid and many will leave to “care for” another group of believers if they finanical package is right and others will refuse to care for other believers if the package is not right. I am not against elders receiving financial support just like I am not against widows, orphans and the poor and needy should receive support. If an elder/apostle/shepherd/evangelist or any other Gospel worker has to be taken from his/her income generating life we should as believers be joyous to help them.
Jon Zen & Lionel,
First off, I apologize if I offended you Jon Zen in the quote brought up by Lionel or any other comments that I have made on this recent blog. My intention was not to offend or prejudge but to strike dialogue on the subject. I have noticed that Lionel promotes a lot of Christian books that can be purchased on various links. I just finally made a comment about it since he has been on the “to pay or not to pay” subject as it relates to pastors and preachers/teachers. There was nothing personal on my side that made me make these comments regarding your book. For like you’ve said, I don’t know you.
Now to the infamous quote.
“But I guess that may defeat his purpose in writing the book in the first place.”
I tried to choose my words carefully in order to strike conversation but also not to place judgment on a brother that I don’t know. That is why I used the words “guess” and “may” in the beginning of the quote. I was throwing it out as a possibility not as an accusation against Jon.
David Flowers,
Thank you for your sincere words. I do understand and agree with much of what you posted.
Jon,
Can you show me once where I said Pastors/Preachers/Teachers/Evangelists/Apostles….. can’t receive income from other Christians?
I think Zen’s wrote it out of care and concern for the Body of Christ so that believers who are willing to can begin to deal with the issue biblically and start to experience the blessing of a fully functioning New Covenant Priesthood of all believers.
Can’t wait to pick it up and be labeled a heretic by Grudem! Grin.
Thanks Jon Z.
Starting next week our assembly will be addressed by 2 women (one is my wife…so proud) and two men as we study and consider the resurrection of Christ! Baby steps for which I am grateful. Praise the Lord!
Lionel,
You stated:
“99.9% of the time you challenge my views on eternal damanation when the post don’t even warrant such a discussion.”
“Finally your comments always sound antagonisit and very rarely do you come from a dialouge.”
My response:
Your selective memory is astonishing! After all the comments on various subjects that I have made on this blog. And all of the encouragement that I given to you and others on this blog. And you say that my comments always sound antagonistic? Come on brother!
You also stated:
“Can you show me once where I said Pastors/Preachers/Teachers/Evangelists/Apostles….. can’t receive income from other Christians?”
My response:
I never said that you said that they can’t receive income from other Christians. Throughout your discussions on this subject you seem to have made it clear that you believe that a preacher should not demand pay for his work for Christ. This is why I made the initial comment about preachers/teachers who require pay for their writings which are meant to edify the Church.
Jon,
For every ten comments 9 of them are a direct correlation to or at least a side swipe at eternal damnation. If you don’t believe that brother something is rattled loose up top. You just did it on the previous post. And I posted something about Corinthians and your comment alluded there. I think other than the dulos/slave post you have done it just about on every post. Again this may be a mistake on my behalf and maybe I am making a leap by saying this but this is what I think and if I am wrong I am sorry.
But again I explained the difference between books and shepherding the two can’t even be close. I would also add mp3’s and sermon on cd’s and DVD’s. Those things cost money to reproduce copyright (if necessary) and so forth thus the cost of creating such medium should be covered if you desire it. Jon teaches at his local church for free, and has 100’s of articles for free and charges $10 per year for a quartely magazine which is sold at a loss. Come on man. As David said there are some guys who take advantage but your comment again didn’t sound like a springboard into a dialogue but the exact opposite.
I am sorry if I misunderstood your attempt but I would ask that you enter a coversation with an inquiry like why does he charge? Or can I have it for free or something.