Should We Abandon Ship or Are We Overshooting?
Nov 16
I am reading Part 3 of Lawrence Richard’s work “A Theology of Church Leadership” . He said something on page 226, that has challenged me even more. Please note that this book was written in 1981. Here is what he says:
How do we help develop a climate of love and openness where impersonal institutional patterns may have long been established? Some suggest that the institutional church must be abandoned and a new form adopted (emphasis mine) Others opt for starting new congregations, where they feel there will be no need to fight, established patterns. It’s true that it is difficult to work toward a change of patterns that are deeply ingrained. But since the church IS (mine) the body of Christ, and Jesus is Lord of the church, He is powerful and able to work within His people. We would be wrong to quickly or lightly abandon brothers and sisters because we are discouraged about the unbiblical patterns that have become established in the congregation. Instead we need, without criticism or antagonism for what the body now is, to work toward the reality described in Scripture as the heritage of a church that is family and that is body.
Today we have options, the world that the NT Church found herself in, is far removed from the world we find ourselves in. Today there is a church on every corner, denominations galore and the option to start a new one on a whim. It only takes wrong pew color, carpet, a falling out with personalities, or a doctrinal difference for a community to split and begin something afresh, with new truths and the perspective of “we have this right”.
Other times, we come into new truths that so rock us, that so shakes our foundation that so transforms the way we see things that we want to share it with others. Not only do we want to share it, our expectations that others will receive such truths with great openness, love, and enthusiasm makes us even the more eager and excited to share. We then jump on the eager train and share these truths with all of our brothers and sisters in Christ. It is from God and they should accept it right? Welllllll….. That is where the problem begins.
As we begin to share we see that others are not excited about this new found information. Especially when this information is going to cause major shifts in the way we do things. We are creatures of habit and often time habit (tradition) so shapes us, that even in light of new found information that we may even acknowledge as true, we begin to rationalize. This rationalization is a defense mechanism that goes off in our brains, which I don’t think is all bad, but it is a hindrance sometimes.
Our eagerness to share then becomes confusion, then frustration, then animosity then atrophy and we either leave and find a new group or start a new group. So we see this group of believers as a sinking or sunk ship and we get off that boat and find someone else sailing the sea of Christianity. And my friends this is where I find myself. Not because I don’t want to “submit” to leaders, or not because I want to be picky about doctrine, not because I want to “do my own thing” (as someone says).
For me I see some things as unbiblical and crippling patterns and once I have shared with leadership (they are the guardians) and the leaders reject, instead of staying and fighting or instead of sitting there allowing frustration to birth atrophy, I would rather leave on good terms. I know other Christians who don’t even talk or speak to former churches because of such disagreements and that is a place I never want to find myself. So for me in an attempt to live out truths, that means I must leave one ship and catch sail on another. That brings me back to Mr. Richards quote.
However, in my pursuit for the community that I wanted and longed for, I find myself dividing from one group of believers. That doesn’t sound like community to me. That sounds like being divided to me. Now enters the complex problem. There is nothing in scripture that tells me I have to meet with this group or the next group, as long as I meet with a group. For a leader to say anything else only opens the question that I ask “well why did you start something new”. This question is always received with a bit of frustration, but for me it is an honest question. For someone to tell me, I should stick with their group, yet they failed to stick with an already established group seems to be inconsistent to me. Regardless of how much they tell me they have heard Jesus’ voice on the matter. Every group on every block believes that and there are a lot of groups on a lot of blocks in Texas.
So that leaves me in a confused place. I have prayed to no avail, as a matter of fact. I don’t even know if the Spirit cares which body I decided to fellowship with, again I think I care more than He does on this matter. My job is to go, surrender myself, serve and as Brother Dave Black says “give”. It is very difficult for me to attach myself with the huge organizations that look more like Fortune 500 companies, it is also hard for me to meet with a group who leaders attempt to dominate the group (this happens much more frequently in more traditional style churches).
But I can’t help but wonder if I am overshooting. In my pursuit for these truths, I remove myself from people who may also need these truths, so now it becomes even more complex. I want to stick the landing but am 2 miles away from the runway. Because now I find myself isolated from the very people I am called to love because I want to love them. Weird right? Anyway I know it is much easier to abandon. I have enough struggles, trying to raise children, be a good husband and worry about my own spirituality right? Especially to fight and and wrestle with people who aren’t even remotely responsive. Maybe we should just let the “Institutional Church” devour themselves and when the people get tired they will come to a more simple expression. Or maybe we should get in where we fit in, attempt to serve these groups where they are so that they can be a better expression of the body? But what if they rebel, what if they want our help? What if, they do us like they did Jesus and the disciples? What if I don’t respond to what they expect from me in that system (serving the organization not the body, the two aren’t the same to me). So I don’t know which way to go and find myself standing at the same fork. I am praying, and reading, and listening.
Hey Lionel,
Overshooting? I think that’s a question you have to answer for yourself. One thing I’ve learned is that no church is perfect. Every place is going to have it’s own set of issues mainly because they’re comprised of imperfect people (who are hopefully pursing holiness and seeking to grow in the Lord), all of us being a part of that imperfect population. In that instance, if you’re expecting perfection, I think it’s fair to say that you’re definitely overshooting. On the other hand, there isn’t anything wrong with wanting to be a part of a healthy local body of believers. You just have to decide what you’re able to accept and what you can’t, based on the Scripts. What are some of the issues that you’re encountering?
We’re all at different places in our walks with the Lord and the body that we’re a part of will reflect that. Some are more mature in the faith, some are less mature. That’s one of the reasons why the older men and women are to teach the younger (Titus 2). I believe that it’s also important to know who comprises a particular body of believers. Are they true believers or are they simply church-goers who attend because it’s what they were taught or the “right thing to do”? That should answer a lot of the questions and concerns that you have. If they’re true believers, don’t be afraid to toil with them in love. Pray for them. Help them understand that we’re supposed to live in community. Teach them. If they’re still in oppostion, pray!
Let his word be your guide and remember that we’re all works in progress. Being illuminated to His truth is amazing. But in addition to being illuminated, we have to be sure we walk in those truths. Live the One Anothers, and prayerfully others will see that and follow you as you follow Him.
Lionel,
You stated:
“What if, they do us like they did Jesus and the disciples?”
My response:
It’s interesting to me that while Jesus was on the earth, very little is recorded about Him teaching and fellowshiping at the synagagues. Instead, we find much more scripture pertaining to His everyday ministy outside of the walls of the “traditional church/synagugue”. This seems to be the same for the apostles as well. I have felt similar to you in the not so distant past but now find myself in somewhat of a place of contentment inspite of my continued absence from a traditional church fellowship. I now realize that real church (body of Christ) fellowship takes on many forms. From us blogging over the internet, to speaking with others over the phone, visiting the sick and improsned, serving one another whom ever that one maybe that God brings our way. We should never feel that we need to go to an established church fellowship in order to feel complete in Christ. For I am fully persuaded that:
Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us…
Rom 8:33 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose….
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[c]
Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Be encouraged!!!
Ash,
I was speaking more from the philosphy that says “you should leave the institutional church”. So it is sort of a question to ask everyone who may struggle with this concept but it is also for personal reflection, that is why I am asking myself that very question
Lionel this kind of puts me in the mind of Paul as he wrestle with the some of the tensions in Galatia. At that time they were all pretty well established but the focus was on two different cultures. I can see where Paul would feel the same way becasue he was opposed by some as he went to the council of Jerusalem.
Trying to convey a message to others that are of like faith but appear to be missing the truth. I am not sure if staying is always the answer because from my understanding one Paul broke from the apostle you rarely if ever see them connected bakc up anymore in scripture. though I understand that staying could bring forth a place of victory as well.
Brian,
I am asking questions, not answering them LOL. I don’t know which is the best way. I also don’t know if Paul was right in some of his fractures. He could have been hot headed and wrong, especially with Mark and Barnabbas.
Oh =-o… I guess I should’ve been slower to speak and quicker to listen before being so eager to respond. My apologies.
Ash,
No problem, I am just struggling through. What do you think about the quote and the post. What do you think about our current culture to leave so quickly?
Lionel-
If you see me out there doggie paddling in that sea that you speak of, just wave and throw me a few vittles to eat so I can stay alive a little longer…or until a ship picks me up…
Vetta,
Given our conversations and relationships what do you think about the post? What has been your struggles? BTW, I haven’t heard from you guys in a week, have you excommunicated us?
As long as there is proper church government in a non-institutionalized assembly then I’m not sure what the problem would be unless someone can show me differently. The only other issue would be appointing the elders and deacons because in the NT church the Apostles and their direct disciples handled that task so it would seem that an authority figure would still be needed to appoint leaders. Right?
To leave or not to leave would depend on the issue at hand. It’s really a case by case basis. If the issue is foundational, of course that’s of greater concern. If the issue is minor, stay and pray.
Ash,
I would probably so no to your first question. As in the church/scripture knows no such thing as government (that is a secular term). Now there are those who provide ovesight (care) for the church and I think the Holy Spirit appoints (Acts 20) them while the church “recognizes” them (Titus and Timothy) and allows them to function. But that is a whole different arguement.
Now let me ask, what would be “foundational”? By the way I am for the “non-instituationalized” persuasion.
Let me ask a few more questions. Can a church operate without “proper government” and still be a church? What defines a church? If you believe so, how long can a church function without leaders?
I had to leave. Moreso for myself than anyone else. I am, as you are, so idealistic when it comes to matters of truth that I would have probably been dangerous and not mature enough to stay and work through the tradition. I came from the COGIC and I can tell you that it is a different animal. If a church is denominationally “independant”, then it is probably easier to stay and lovingly admonish others through the scriptures. But the denominational “covering” is not easily removed.
Only God knows how/why/when/where we should move and move to.
I concur with your objection to the word I used “government”, but the main point I was getting at is that there is some type of oversight in place and the Apostles and those working in close connection with them appointed them. Question: How would the overseers be selected? Vote among the members?
Foundational issues to me in the IC’s would mainly be the sound teaching, biblical gospel, authority of scripture, etc.
Since the government statement seemed to be more of a semantics issues, my fault, then it can definitely operate the way it was designed to with overseers an such. By government, I wasn’t trying to say that a hierarchy needs to be established like a bunch of individual congregations report to one large governing entity but rather proper oversight.
How long can a church function without leaders? Leaders in what sense? A governing entity or proper oversight? As long as a church has proper oversight, then it can function indefinitely as long as the overseers don’t disqualify themselves from their position, and be allowed to continue to serve in them, which is unhealthy for the congregation.
Ash,
I am currently wrestling through that now. I think a full consensus of the body not a vote. You know what I mean. If there is one person who objects, then we need to figure why, it shows two things. Maybe the person being selected has problems we haven’t seen or two the person who objects has issues and need to be dealt with. But I am for what is know as consensus 100%. These men should already be functioning as overseers, we would only be recognizing them formally.
I mean what if the Holy Spirit was providing oversight. For example Antioch, Ephesus, Crete and other places were already recognized as “churches” without any leadership, unless we believe the leadership that Paul and his companions provided was oversight, but don’t forget there ain’t no train, plane or automobiles, it would take a good while to visit people and would be very expensive. For the most part it seems that normal disciples (non-leaders/or laymen) were the ones who started a good portion of churches and these churches, though with problems, were still fruitful churches as more disciples were coming to know Christ (I guess Jesus knew what he was talking about when he said “I will build my Church” right).
My ideal would be a group of believers meeting together for a couple of years or so (could be shorter or longer) functioning with under the headship of Christ through the Spirit until the Holy Spirit appoints a leader and the church recognizes them from amongst the group. The transplanted, non-organic development of leaders is very frustrating and doesn’t seem to have any biblical grounds. It is very similar to the corporate world, while the scriptures shows Timothy, Titus, Paul and others recognizing men from among the bretheren not transplanting men over the bretherern.
BLD,
I think there are times where we MUST leave. I am thinking too often though we leave too early, so the challenge is like a challenge of giving, am I giving enough? Well what is the Spirit telling you, the next question is are you listening. So this is a post about listening and struggling more than calling anyone wrong or right, I think someone said we must be convinced, maybe it was Ash.
Lionel,
A few questions, just for my understanding:
1. If there isn’t a complete consenus regarding overseers and the 2nd option is true, then who deals with the person who has issues (if there is are no overseers in place yet)? How should they be dealt with? Then there’s also the issue of favoritism playing a role in selecting overseers. Maybe one has more charisma than another and more people like him whereas another person is more suited for the role. I’m not trying to be discouraging but just mentioning a few possibilities. There will be issues in any route namely because of our continuing imperfections.
2. You mentioned that there weren’t overseers in the some of the NT churches (I did kind of consider Paul to be an overseer. In your opinion, would that be incorrect? Even so Paul sent others to check on the conditions of churches when he wasn’t able to do so himself). How then do we determine which congregations should have overseers and which ones shouldn’t?
I guess the real heart of the matter seems to be – How to we combat tradition and get back to the business at hand?
Ash,
1. We are called to deal with wayward saints. Can you show me a place in scripture that says leaders are to deal with wayward saints?
2. If we are praying in the Spirit then favoritism and such will not be an issue; however, if they are that will happen with leaders there also, those leaders who are picking other leaders may have been favorites also.
3. Paul was an Apostle, who left churches with no overseers. Peter calls himself an overseer, I don’t see Paul ever using such language.
4. I beleive ALL churches should have overseers, just not immediately. I believe we have to see their love in action first
5. Your last question is the question I am asking. Lets keep the dialogue going I am enjoying it.
Lionel,
1. Hmmm, no I don’t think I can. At least not off the top of my head. In support of your point, I think of the scenario with the church at Corinth and the instructions Paul gave them regarding the wayward brother.
2. True
3. True, Paul was an Apostle. My line of thinking behind him being an overseer was that the letters he wrote were usually in response to issues that were going on in different congregations, providing direction and instruction. I see you’re point about him not being an overseer by his own admission, and by his lack of being [permanently] present in the congregations [indefinitely]. ( [ ] are my clarifiers).
4. I’m with you on that. While I want to agree with you 100%, there’s a little voice in the back of my head that say, you need leadership at the beginning, which could be seen as a lack of faith for the Holy Spirit to motivate believers to do what we’re called to do. Pray for me on that one.
5. So basically, we have our order wrong. Instead of beginning with overseers and such, believers should just meet and then (sometime down the road) recognize overseers who’ve already emerged? Then the structure of the meeting will be decided by those in attendance? I’d love to see that in action. Unity, humility and fruit would be key.
I seem to be trying to reconcile 2 seemingly opposed things in my mind. Meeting with the larger congregation and meeting in small groups. In my thinking I’ve always looked at meeting at the “church” as corporate worship whereas meeting in smaller groups were more for sharpening each other and accountability. Now I’m asking myself why I think those things are in opposition and can only be accomplished in one setting or the other?
The question from my previous post is a difficult one. I don’t have the answer for that. To think that everyone in the US would abandon their ICs, I don’t see how that would happen. At least not short of a move of the Lord. Also, the more organic model that you’re speaking of seems to be the way things are going in countries where Christian persecution (specifically killing and imprisonement) is bananas! Since they don’t have the US first amendment rights of freedom speech, religion, and assembly, they’re forced to meet in houses and underground. Much like the NT church.
Very interesting post. Thanks for provoking us to evaluate our thinking and make sure we’re in line with truth! I’m also enjoying the dialogue.
Lionel-
I think you are my siamese twin…we’re connected at the brain. My biggest struggle is that I agree wholeheartedly with Frank Viola’s 4 strands of the DNA of the Church:
1. It will always express the fact that Christ is head; not man
2. Every member-functioning
3. It expresses the theology of the New Testament
4. It’s grounded in the fellowship of the triune God
…And I have yet to see that. I have gotten some very interesting theories from other believers about why I haven’t seen it and none of them seem to be good enough. I KNOW this type of community exists SOMEWHERE because Frank gives many examples of fellowships that he’s seen around the world that DO have that DNA. I also stuggle with what I believe community in Acts looks like and how I have yet to experience that. I often wonder am I overshooting and if I should just “settle” and “go along to get along” but my spirit does not rest well with settling. However, I don’t know what else to do. I am relentless when it comes to pursuing what I believe the scriptures teach, but I too have to consider my husband and what he goes through as I wrestle. I’m sure he’s tired, but I thank God that he has been patient with me and has listened intently to me and lovingly corrects me in the areas where I sin about the situation (I am quick to anger…urrrrggghh)……I have some other struggles that we can talk about privately because I don’t want to post them publicly. I think about it OFTEN and honestly dread times of fellowship and would rather be alone in my home away from the rest of the world where it’s safe. I am so tired, Lionel…so tired. I’m starting to think that maybe it’s just me and I’m wrong. Maybe. I don’t know…
Ash,
I wrestling, just wrestling and I don’t know. I am an idealist maybe……..
Vetta,
Whew!!!!!! Whew!!!! I go back and forth and I know I sound double minded, but in my heart of hearts I believe like you. I believe that this can happen but we refuse to wrestle hard for it. I guess my question is about the abandonement and should we, or should we stay and fight, or should we be a church within a church, but that seems to be very inconsistent to me. I don’t want to become a pharisee for form and miss Christ in the process. I don’t want to be so dogmatic that I lose out on the opportunity love others and walk with them, but often times the very structure prevents us from walking with others, it seem like we compartmentalize our lives to Sunday and thus community becomes a mute point. I even know groups that have the so called structure right; however, community is still eluding them like Redd Foxx did the IRS.
But I am there in the tension. The tension between what I believe and what I see. And I want what I believe, but I don’t want to be schismatic; however, most people believe that is going to far. So I don’t know.
Maybe we need to all talk, maybe Brian and them can let you guys help us so it won’t be a pick this or that type thing just maybe a different vision type thing. I was really thinking of maybe tweaking the structure to be more in tune with the culture (something that looks somewhat traditional) but one that has the DNA that you talked about from Viola. Whats your thoughts?
Lionel-
I’m not sure what you mean by “see if Brian will let [us]…” I belong to Christ’s church and have the liberty of meeting where I please. I’m not interested in becoming a church within a church because I don’t think that’s consistent with scripture. I’m also don’t believe that being “dogmatic” about what chasing hard after what I believe Scripture teaches will cause me to lose opportunity to love and walk with other believers. I do that now with many believers of all different denominations, ecclesiologies, theologies, etc. I don’t believe that how I choose to fellowship has any bearings on my relationship with other believers as long as I am not trying to proselytize them and tell them that they are wrong if they don’t see things the way I do.
In chasing Christ, I don’t think it’s possible to miss Him. He’s always in view as I struggle, wrestle, toil, and tear to try to get to Him. All I want is to pursue Him in immediate community with those who also see Him as I do and want to express Him in a way that is consistent with the biblical DNA. I will always continue to fellowship with those who see Him differently than I do, but I want to PURSUE Him with those who see Him the way I do.
I don’t know if this is right but I don’t believe that it’s wrong. What do you think?
P.S. As for the traditional structure, I would only do that if it looked like Apex and met maybe once a month or bi-monthly. Anything else (I believe) would cause people to slide back into the same traditional mode of thinking because it is set up in such a way…
I think sometimes we may think we are chasing Christ but often are not, but I do believe even in our missing of Him, His promise to “complete” is ever before us. So I am not threatned by journeys for truth, I really think they shape us. So from that perspective you are right.
Lionel-
I just don’t believe that you can seek (chase) Him and not find Him. His grace won’t allow it. He tells us that we WILL find Him…………I don’t think we will ever arrive to the totality of Him while in this life and that’s where the comfort of His promise to complete us steps in. But while I’m seeking Him, I don’t want to do it alone, and He wouldn’t want that either…
Vetta,
I agree in part