Isn’t Every Christian “Divisive”?
Nov 19
Today I want to address the issue of divisiveness. Lets put this in practice and see how it works. By the very definition every Christian is divisive. Let me explain how this works by first defining fellowship.
Fellowship can mean community, sharing, intimacy or just joint participation. From a biblical perspective we are to have fellowship with every believer. So the day I decide to “commit” to a core group of believers over and above another group of believers, I am at that point in time denying fellowship to one group and giving it to the other.
Lets take this further. If you are a christian and you have a church that you drive by to go to another church based off of any other reason than they don’t have room for you, then you are denying that group fellowship and in turn you are being “divisive” correct? As a matter of fact Paul only sees one church the only difference is geography. Now here is where it become tricky.
In most cities where the Gospel had gone there seemed to be multiple churches, the only reason their were multiple meeting locations was because of size, as far as we can tell. But those multiple churches make up one church thus there was no exclusivity based off of any other reason than maybe size. These churches met in houses for some reason or the other (some say it was meant to always be small, others say this was only temporary). Once persecution ceased the church began to meet in buildings raised for the primary purpose of meeting corporately. Now we can argue that this is wrong but this is up for debate, we can say it was for the best and this is up for debate; however, geography and logistics seem to be the only two reasons there were multiple churches.
So whenever a Christian hops in his car and drives past a church (a group of believers) to meet with another group of believers he has become divisive and based off of the definitions I am hearing, is in sin. I don’t care if that is because the church is too big or if the church has a certain government or if the church has a certain denomination and you think denominationalism is wrong. None of that matters because we aren’t to divide with people because, well, that’s being divisive.
However, every Christian does this everyday or at least 90% of Christians where there are multiple churches. Everday Christians make the decision to drive past or meet with other Christians based off of some set of principles. Again the principle is irrelevant if that reason is nonessential (death, burial, resurrection, diety) If it is for any other reason than geography and size, again, we are being divisive right? Well
Lets move into divisiveness. Divisiveness seems to imply that I refuse to do all the bible calls me to do with you because I disagree with you. That is I refuse to love you. Now is it necessary to love you by meeting with you on a weekly basis? I beg the differ. Not only do I beg the differ, every church planter who plants in an area where there is a least one group of Christians is divisive, every Christian who chooses not to meet with another group is divisive, just about every seminary is divisive, that means just about every Christian is divisive. And we are much more trouble than we think right? Even the underground church in China is being divisive because they feel the government has no place in the church; however, there are Christians in the government sanctioned church so they should be “meeting” with these Christians right?
Now that sounds crazy but based off of the definitions I am hearing that is exactly what people are saying. Because if I say I want to “gather” with a set group of belivers because we agree on some things we feel is important (not essential but important) then I would be considered being divisive, but that would mean we should only erect one building or we may meet in different buildings but we should only be one church somehow and the only thing that should seperate any Christians in a given location is logistics (size).
I don’t believe that is what Jesus had in mind nor Paul, when they talked about unity. Now I could be wrong, but if I am every group of Christians are in sin, regardless, unless the group they refuse to meet with is not Christian by the objective historical standard of Christianity. It would be better to just not commit to any group and go to every group as much as you can, maybe visit 52 different groups in a year so that you aren’t excluding either group from fellowship right? That is the only way not to be divisive, because whenever you make a conscience decision to commit to one group above another you have already denied one fellowship, and become divisive.
Listen if I decide to not meet with a a group because they have a certain denomination I am just as wrong. So just say I have a Church of Christ next door and you disagree on their stance yet you believe they are Christian, shouldn’t you meet there, if not aren’t you being divisive? What about a Presbyterian church or an Assembly of Gods, or a Charismatic Church or a church that has a woman pastor, a church that doesn’t have any pastors? What about a church that believes Baptism is not part of the church. What about a group that believes every Christians should be involved heavily in politics. Any time you make a decision not to meet with one group you are being divisive regardless of what that reason is. So we must be consistent if we are going to call Christians to fellowship and rebuke them of divisiveness.
So divisiveness seems to have everything to do with elitism or a refusal to love and fellowship is to be obedient to loving all Christians the way the bible calls us to. I think it is more a testament to love and unity that if we disagree and yet love one another. For example just say there are two Christian families who live on a same street but go to separate congregations but are working together to fulfill the Great Commission that would be showing forth Christ’s unity.
Whats your thoughts and if you meet with one group of Christians that are further in proximity to you why? If so aren’t you being divisive by that very choice, if not why not?
Very well said…in a nutshell, the biblical definition of divsion cannot be used to suit our own personal idealogies. It must be a definition that can transcend ages and cultures. It must be an objective definition that doesn’t pull Christ to one side of the arguement, but instead, place Christ at His rightful position: Lord Over All.
I do meet with a church that lives and gathers over 20 iles from my house. I probably pass up 500 churches to get there. I meet with them because it was the first church that I had come to know that matched what I knew to be true in my heart. It was recommended by someone I know. Now, proximity is posing some issues for me that I am wrestling with now but that’s a whole ‘notha blog post.
I don’t think it’s divsive because I believe what you wrote here:
“So divisiveness seems to have everything to do with elitism or a refusal to love and fellowship is to be obedient to loving all Christians the way the bible calls us to.”
I NEVER refuse fellowship with other believers. In fact, none of my other friends who are believers go to this church and I fellowship with them more than I do with my church. In fact, I’m always on the look out for opportunities to meet with other believers and fellowship with them.
I meant to say “It was the first church that I had come to know that matched what I knew to be true in my heart in terms of form.”
Vetta,
Based off of the definitions of divisiveness that I have read, I would say that that definition would mean you meet with a group of “believers” closest to you, anything else seems to be, well… divisive right?
Exactly, thats what I have been saying…find where you can have peace and get on with it, new or existing. Your not going to find any place new or existing that will be 99.9% NCT (not many of these at all as I said many who think they are NCT are confused dispensationalists), Organic, Doctrines of Grace (most Organics are not Calvinists)(most Calvinists are Reformed and not Organic) A-Mil (Some Organics are A-Mil, most are Reformed), you can’t find it, you will have to find fellowship with agroup of people who do not agree with you on everything.
Lionel-
Let me ask you this:
Where you are now, what percentage of the folks are the following:
Pure NCT freedom from the Mosaic Law =
Organic/Simple not House Church, there is a difference =
Freedom of every believer priest (male and female) to function in the mutual meeting =
Pure TULIP/Doctrines of Grace =
All gifts of the Spirit functioning =
A-Mil or A-Mil/Partial Preterist/Idealist =
Church is God’s eternal purpose of the ages and not plan B =
The true Israel of God is all Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ =
I can’t find this, I ahev to fellowship with folks who are not in agreement with me.
Have you seen this anywhere?
If I pegged your position wrong on something, please accept my apology and correct me.
I don’t think you should search for a group that you agree with 100%. I think you should search for a group who has the same hermeneutic so that everyone can be on one accord as far as teaching and exhorting are concerned.
Lionel-
Yes, according to that definition you would be right and the very people who define division that way would be divisive themselves (it’s the same tail chase of people who believe in relative truth)…but I disagree with the definitions that you have read.
Hutch,
I will answer your question but let me first ask you a question. You used the word divisive, this post is to define it. So what is divisive, in comment 11 in the previous post you said this:
“I say anyone who denies Christian fellowship based on anything other than the Person or Work of the Lord Jesus Christ is being divisive. It all hinges on agreeing to that initial first premise. ”
I asked you what that meant and you never answered. So I will give you another opportunity here because based off of the definition I am being divisive and that is sin and I don’t want to be.
Now to answer your question. Only a few of those effect function and those would be the ones I would have the biggest troubles with. But yes you have me pegged accurately. All that you said I believe. However only a few of those would be important to me as we meet. In numbers they are: 1 (which includes 3 theoretically but doesn’t really effect it), and 2 (maybe but I am up for a hybrid). The other stuff really doesn’t drive the way we function because Vetta and I disagree on 5 and 7 (though she may not understand why 7 but 7 drives your 5).
Now let me add one more question. If there is a church close to you that you acknowledge as believers why aren’t you there? And if so aren’t you being divisive by failing to meet with them?
Vetta,
That is my struggle, because it goes back to this, what is divisive and when am I doing it and based of of the standard definition that Ash included “in essentials unity in nonessentials charity”, we should by that definition meet with the Christians closer to us and to drive pass them for any reason would be divisive and denying them fellowship when they are the ones closet to you and could have the greatest impact on you anyway, but then what if there are two fellowships closets to you? Which one do you go to then and by going or committing to one aren’t you simultaneously denying others fellowship?
Lionel-
I’ve already answered your questions, you must decide where you will meet, you cannot meet everywhere, you must find where you are at peace. I’ve never said you must meet with the group closest to your home. I already told you I do not think we should ultimately decide where we go, but that we should go where Christ tells us to-I’m going where Christ told me and Stacy to go and I cannot meet with everyone as I have already said. We prayed and studied over this question for 2 years to get an answer. I never suspected that I would get the answer from the Lord that I did and I still am amazed by it and a part of me still wants to wait for you, BLD, Alan, Brian and others to move into my neighborhood, but your taking way too long getting here. I think you are personalizing what I have said too much and perhaps that is my fault, I don’t think you are or have been anymore divisive in your life than I have been.
And I am so glad that I have found 1 brother on the face of the earth who agrees with my positions 99.9% of the time.
LIonel-
Are you saying most of them embrace pure NCT or that you are looking to start a work with a NCT foundation?
I hear ya. There are 4 (yes count them FOUR) churches in my neighborhood of about 15 streets. None of them (by their “doctrinal statements” believe:
*Expressing Christ as head; not man.
*Expresses/Encourages every member functioning
*Visible expression of NT Theology on earth
*Grounded in the fellowship of the triune God
Because of that, I cannot pursue Christ with them. However, I can fellowship with them and love them and love Jesus and serve with them and help them and…
Hutch,
How did Christ tell you to go there? I guess that statement seems to maybe lead me to scratch my head? Did you not have knowledge of the church and it was like a supernatural revelation? Were you searching for churches online and He told you this is the one? Did you ask Him about the one closet by and He said no, and ended up telling you to go to the one you never heard of? I am not being a smart butt, I really would like to know how that transpired.
Did you ever ask why He wanted you to go there and not the one closet by? I am really trying to figure it out. Maybe Jesus is telling me to go somewhere and I am not listening. I was under the impression since they are all His bride and body that He would want us to go to the one that we can serve the greatest and that would mean those who you live closet to.
Hutch,
I don’t understand your question to me.
Okay, thanks Hutch.
Lionel-
Would you consuder Dave Black or Alan Knox typical SBC? Do you get my point by asking that? Things are changing, who knows what Christ can do among a non-organic assembly with you sharing gently with folks what you have learned from such men especiallyas you and I slowly learn how to actually live like that-its new to me. I’m not saying that is what you are to do, I just asying think about what can be accomplished (if) He calls you to it. But you would have to be patient, long-suffering and you would need to die to self-I’m convinced its time for me to die to self and serve and not push for what I want. Its where I am at. But somehow I think in the end I will get everything and more regarding what I want.
Lionel,
You stated:
“I was under the impression since they are all His bride and body that He would want us to go to the one that we can serve the greatest and that would mean those who you live closet to.”
My response:
How did you come to the conclusion that we can serve the greatest with those who live closest to us?
I believe that only the Spirit knows when and where we should serve to bring about the greatest service to the Body of Christ. And of course this does not mean it has to be at a “traditional church gathering/fellowship” for fellowship takes on many forms.
Hutch,
You stated that God told you:
“He said enough people are running Rick Warrens bases, He wants me to make disciples and minister to the poor.”
My response:
Not trying to be funny but this does sound a little Benny Hinnish.
Did God really mention Rick Warren by name?
And did you hear an audible voice from God?
I have never said people won’t change Hutch, I am addressing the issue of your definition of “divisiveness”. Based off of your earlier definition if I don’t want to meet with a group of Christians because of a doctrinal difference other than essentials then I am divisive, so I am trying to adress that in the post and comments. I am saying EVERY Christian is divisive, if that Christians makes ANY decision to not meet with ANY OTHER Christians for any reason (operative word being Christian).
Jon,
Unless you visit every church in a given radius (I do mean every literally) you won’t know who you can best serve. This is why I like Hutch’s answer about hearing from Christ, I am just trying to figure out how He heard Jesus’ voice about going to the PARTICULAR fellowship He is currently at and how this transpired.
Jon,
As a matter of fact Jon, define “serving the body”. I think it would be best to go to the one closest.
Lionel,
Be careful in leaning to much on your own understanding and be more open to the flow of God in your life. He will take you to places that you would least expect and cause the spiritual fruit to be produced in due season giving glory to Him.
Rom 8:26 “Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
Jon,
Where and how do you fellowship? How is the “flow of God” in your life? Exactly what does that mean? Because the “flow” is taking us in much different places so either God is flowing in one of us or both of us.
Lionel-
I know you are seeking God, I’m not trying to say that you are not, I know you will find your answer.
Stacy and I are praying for you and your wife and kiddos.
Do we get to see you soon?
Lionel,
You asked:
“Where and how do you fellowship?”
My respones:
It’s mostly spontaneous fellowship. Whether it’s with my family, with people I may come into contact with during the day, people that I purpose to visit and encourage, encouraging others over the phone, via internet, visiting a “traditional church” setting, etc.
You asked:
“How is the “flow of God” in my life?”
My response:
Maybe I stated it bad. However, what I mean is allowing God to work through our lives in any cirmcustance and not place limits on where we think God could get the most glory.
Lionel,
I’m so glad that more and more people are struggling with these issues. Will we ever see perfect unity in the church before the end time? Probably not. It doesn’t seem that they had that kind of unity in the church in the first century either. But, in spite of their fallen nature and self centered nature, Paul and Peter and others continually exhorted them towards humility, love, acceptance, and unity. I think we should seek the same today. Of course, we can’t do this on our own strength, but only through the power of the Holy Spirit. In the same way, I think its pretty obvious that we will not move toward unity doing things the way that we’ve been doing them. Something has to change. I’m willing to change my way of thinking about the church, fellowship, acceptance, love, unity, etc. even though I don’t know exactly what that will look like. Like I said, I’m excited to see more and more people willing to change as well. God help us.
-Alan